Nina Gregori: Upam, da bo EU vedno ostajala varno zatočišče

Tema nove oddaje podkasta so migracije. Gostja Zorana Potiča je izvršna direktorica Evropske agencije za azil Nina Gregori, ki se s tem področjem ukvarja že vso svojo kariero.

Nina Gregori je bila pred kratkim že drugič imenovana na mesto izvršne direktorice Evropske agencije za azil (angleško European Union Agency for Asylum - EUAA). Pred odhodom v Bruselj je bila dolga leta direktorica direktorata na ministrstvu za notranje zadeve, ki je zadolžen za državljanstva, urejanje statusov prebivalstva in migracije. Je odlična poznavalka tega področja, zato je  enourni pogovor z voditeljem Zoranom Potičem kar prekratek, da bi lahko načela številne aktualne vidike te problematike.

Pogovarjala sta se predvsem o pravkar sprejetem paktu o migracijah in azilu in posledicah, ki jih bo imel za upravljanje migracij v EU in delovanje EUAA, dotaknila pa sta se tudi vzrok za migracije in možnega razvoja tega področja v prihodnosti.

Vabljeni k poslušanju in tudi ogledu.


[ENGLISH VERSION] 
Nina Gregori: I hope that the EU will always remain a safe haven

The topic of the new podcast show is migration. Zorana Potič's guest is the executive director of the European Asylum Agency, Nina Gregori, who has been working in this field for her entire career.

Nina Gregori was recently appointed for the second time as Executive Director of the European Union Asylum Agency (EUAA). Before going to Brussels, she was for many years the director of the directorate at the Ministry of Internal Affairs, which is in charge of citizenships, regulation of population statuses and migration. She is an excellent expert in this field, which is why the one-hour conversation with host Zoran Potič is too short to cover many current aspects of this issue.

They focused on recently adopted pact on migration and asylum and the consequences it will have for the management of migration in the EU and the operation of the EUAA, and they also touched on the cause of migration and the possible development of this area in the future.

You are invited to watch and listen.

Transcript

Vladni podkast Govsi.

Voditelj Zoran Potič: Lep pozdrav v novem podkastu Govsi v produkciji Urada vlade za komuniciranje. Z vami sem Zoran Potič in tokrat smo v goste povabili izjemno zanimivo sogovornico Nino Gregori, ki ima zanimivo kariero za sabo in pred sabo, namreč je že od leta 2019 v službi v tujini in je najboljše, da kar sama pove, kaj je ta služba in zakaj je zanimiva ta služba, če je zanimiva. 

Izvršna direktorica EUAA Nina Gregori: Ja, najprej hvala lepa za vabilo. Zelo sem vesela, da sem lahko gostja v tem vašem podkastu. Ja, res je, od leta 2019 službujem na Malti. Tam sem izvršna direktorica Evropske agencije za azil. Pred letom 2022 se je ta agencija imenovala Evropski azilni podporni urad, potem pa smo dobili nov mandat, ki je ojačan. In od takrat dalje je to Agencija za azil, ki pomaga, njen mandat je pomoč 27 državam članicam. Sedež pa je res na Malti.

Voditelj: Bova se tega vašega dela še dotaknila. Namreč ta podkast je tudi povezan z 20. obletnico vstopa Slovenije v Evropsko unijo in tu je tudi vaša izkušnja bogata. Kakšne spomine imate na to obdobje oziroma vstop Slovenije v Evropsko unijo in kako so te izkušnje v bistvu pripomogle k tej karierni rasti, recimo?

Gregori: Ja, jaz kar s ponosom povem, da sem v bistvu zrasla v slovenskem uradništvu. Jaz sem v resnici začela svojo kariero na Ministrstvu za notranje zadeve in sem celo življenje delala na Ministrstvu za notranje zadeve, preden sem odšla v tujino. Že leta 1999, ko smo postali kandidati za članstvo, ko so se začela pristopna pogajanja in ko smo morali prilagoditi takratno slovensko zakonodajo s področja notranjih zadev v 24. poglavju evropskega acquisa, sem bila članica take delovne skupine na Ministrstvu za notranje zadeve, kjer smo začeli v bistvu s postopki prilagajanja zakonodaje. To je bila kar velika delovna skupina, potem smo sodelovali seveda s kolegi s pravosodnega ministrstva in to je bilo eno tako zelo pozitivno obdobje, bi rekla, v mojem življenju, v moji karieri, kjer smo res veliko delali, ampak smo delali z zagonom in se mi zdi, da so bili potem rezultati zelo hitro vidni. Zelo zanimiva so bila ta obdobja, ko so nas kot kandidate preizkušali v Bruslju. Ali je naša zakonodaja seveda že do te mere smo naredili transpozicijo evropske zakonodaje, da bi lahko rekli, da bomo zaprli to 24. poglavje. Takrat smo sodelovali seveda tudi z Ministrstvom za zunanje zadeve in takrat ustanovljeno Službo za evropske zadeve. Kot veste, je bil vodja ožje pogajalske skupine gospod Potočnik in takrat je bil minister brez listnice za evropske zadeve gospod Bavčar, zunanji minister g. Rupel. Tako da oni so seveda koordinirali delo vseh ministrstev, medtem ko na notranjem ministrstvu, kot sem rekla, smo imeli svojo delovno skupino, ki jo je vodil državni sekretar gospod Debelak. Zelo pomemben je bil tudi gospod Genorio, ki je še vedno aktiven na področju zunanjih zadev in evropskih zadev, kjer smo seveda morali ne samo uskladiti zakonodajo, ampak smo potem imeli tudi evropska sredstva, da smo lahko to počeli in smo jih uspešno črpali in v bistvu preko projektov potem prilagajali tudi druge zadeve, ne samo zakonodajo. Tudi na primer, morali smo začeti izdajati evropske dokumente. Leta 2004, ko smo potem vstopili, smo morali tehnično prilagoditi te zadeve Evropski uniji, tako da jaz v bistvu hodim, bom rekla, v Bruselj na te sestanke že od leta 1999 in ... 

Voditelj: Še niste naveličani? 

Gregori: Ne, ne še. Moje navdušenje nad to evropsko idejo se v resnici povečuje, zato ker res iskreno verjamem, da Slovenija je del Evrope in lahko igra pomembno vlogo. To smo večkrat tudi že dokazali. Tako da mislim, da bi bilo lepo videti mogoče malo več tega evropskega duha tudi doma. 

Voditelj: Ja, saj o tem se bova pogovarjala v tem podkastu tudi v nadaljevanju. Namreč ta evropski duh. Vi ste pet let bili na čelu te agencije in pred kratkim, pred nekaj tedni, so vam potrdili nov petletni mandat. To pomeni, da so bili šefi, nadrejeni, kdo je to, zadovoljni z vašim delom? In ste v bistvu, če še omenim, Slovenka na uradniškem položaju, v bistvu na najvišji poziciji v tej strukturi in funkciji Evropske unije. 

Gregori: Ja, naj najprej pojasnim, da je Evropska agencija za azil v bistvu ena od 54 decentraliziranih agencij, kjer v bistvu nekako je pristojnost popolnoma jasno določena s posebno uredbo. Smo pa seveda povezani z Evropsko komisijo in trenutno je komisarka Johanssonova tista, ki je pristojna za področje notranjih zadev na nivoju Evropske unije in Generalni direktorat je pristojni direktorat, ki v bistvu nekako nadzira delovanje agencije. Dejstvo pa je, da v bistvu izbor izvršnega direktorja je pa v rokah držav članic, tako da tudi potrditev nadaljnjega petletnega mandata, kjer moram reči, da sem zelo zadovoljna, ker je bila odločitev soglasna. Torej vseh 28 članov upravnega odbora, ki predstavljajo države članice, je potrdilo, da so zadovoljni z mojim delom in da me želijo videti na čelu agencije v naslednjih petih letih. Ja, dejstvo pa je, da se seveda mandat agencije bo krepil. Trenutno veste, da v Bruslju nastaja oziroma se potrjuje pakt o migracijah in azilu in pri implementaciji tega pakta bo agencija igrala ključno vlogo.

Voditelj: Ja, če nam mogoče to bolj podrobno opišete. Namreč azil, migranti, begunci, vse to so teme, ki niso zanimive za Slovenijo oziroma okupirajo naš čas v Sloveniji, ampak je to v bistvu vseevropska tema in je v tem smislu vloga agencije, zdaj pravite, okrepljena. V kakšnem smislu? Kaj se bo spremenilo? Kakšne novosti prinaša ta pakt? 

Gregori: Ja, če govorimo o upravljanju z migracijami na nivoju Evropske unije, je to na nek način evropska pristojnost. Seveda države članice ohranijo določeno suverenost na področju, predvsem na področju azila, saj same izdajajo odločitve o tem, kdo v bistvu bo pridobil azil oziroma ga ne bo. Statusne odločitve. Ampak upravljanje z migracijami, torej tako imenovani 'migration management', je pa definitivno v rokah Evropske unije. 

Voditelj: Skratka, pristojnosti države na ravni pridobivanja azila, mednarodne zaščite, ostajajo v nacionalnih rokah?

Gregori: Tako.

Voditelj: Ampak v bistvu postaja ta politika vse bolj evropska, koordinirana. Kaj to pomeni?

Gregori: Če na hitro pogledamo genezo, lahko vidite, da je leta 1999 se je Evropski svet odločil, da bo, to so bili tako imenovani zaključki iz Tampereja, da bo oblikoval skupni evropski azilni sistem in od 1999 dalje se ta sistem gradi. Evropska komisija je predlagala prvi set zakonodaje 2001 in v bistvu so države članice takrat brez parlamenta, ker še ni imel take funkcije, potem potrdile to zakonodajo, jo sprejele. Ampak ta zakonodaja je bila v obliki direktiv. To pomeni, da so imele potem države članice določen čas in so morale prenesti te direktive v svoje nacionalne zakonodaje. In potem se je ta skupni evropski azilni sistem gradil v bistvu preko določenih novih pravnih instrumentov, ki so bile med drugim uredbe, na primer poznamo Dublinsko uredbo, ki omogoča v bistvu določitev, katera država članica je pristojna za obravnavo prošnje za mednarodno zaščito. In zdaj ta novi pakt o migracijah in azilu, ki naj bi bil s strani Evropskega parlamenta potrjen 10. aprila in s tem, bom rekla, bo potem Svet junija dokončno potrdil, bo pa omogočil, da bomo imeli še bolj, bom rekla stabilen skupni evropski azilni sistem. Zaradi tega, ker bodo odslej vsi pravni akti v obliki uredb. To pomeni, da bodo morale države članice neposredno izvajati to zakonodajo in v resnici se bo s tem omogočilo, da se bo zakonodaja izvajala bolj koherentno, kar bi pripeljalo do tega, da če nekdo, če poenostavim, zaprosi za mednarodno zaščito v kateri koli od članic Evropske unije, v 27 državah, torej v kateri koli državi, naj bi bil rezultat, torej odločitev, sprejeta po enakih pravilih in naj bi bila enaka. To pomeni, če bo državljan, na primer Afganistana, zaprosil za mednarodno zaščito v Sloveniji ali pa v Avstriji ali pa na Finskem, naj bi imel odločitev, ki naj bi bila sprejeta prvič po enakih pravilih in naj bi bila tudi kot rezultat enaka. Torej bi ali pridobil zaščito ali pa je ne bi, ker te razlike med sistemi so danes še vedno očitne. Naša agencija, mandat azilne agencije pa je, da podpira države članice pri enotnem izvajanju te politike. In seveda, če pakt prinaša večjo koherentnost pri izdajanju končnih odločitev, je agencija v bistvu v funkciji priprave določenih orodij, ki pripomorejo ali pa pomagajo državam, da to politiko izvajajo na čim bolj enak način.

Voditelj: Ko govorimo o paktu, veliko držav imajo veliko pričakovanj od tega pakta, med njimi tudi Slovenija. Kaj to konkretno pomeni za Slovenijo, ki vidimo, se sooča z velikim pritiskom ljudi, ki prihajajo na meje, migranti, begunci in tako naprej. Kaj ta pakt prinaša Sloveniji?

Gregori: Če pogledamo na nek splošen ali pa generalen način, vidimo, da v bistvu dobro upravljanje z migracijami vsebuje pet ključnih elementov. Prvi je učinkovita zaščita zunanje meje, drugi je učinkoviti in hitri postopki za mednarodno zaščito, ki vsebujejo vsa proceduralna in druga jamstva prosilcem za zaščito. Tretji element je hitro in dostojno vračanje tistih, ki zaščite niso potrebni. Četrti element je seveda vprašanje integracije znotraj Evropske unije tistih, ki seveda v Evropski uniji ostajajo, in peti je sodelovanje z državami izvora in tranzita. V tem smislu je pač vse, vsi ti vsi elementi morajo delovati, v kolikor eden izmed njih ne deluje dobro ali pa ni učinkovit, potem se seveda ta razmerja rušijo in zato je tako težko na nek način upravljati z migracijami v Evropski uniji, kjer je ogromno, bom rekla, še vedno nacionalnih sistemov, kjer zadeve niso popolnoma enotne, kjer niso povezane. Imamo tudi problem z integracijo velikih IT sistemov, kjer recimo smo vzpostavili schengenski informacijski sistem, vizumski sistem, potem Eurodac za obravnavanje prošenj za azil in v bistvu ti sistemi med sabo niso povezani, tako da več je teh izzivov in pakt v resnici naj bi naglasil vse te izzive in poskuša predstaviti rešitve za učinkovitost vsakega od teh elementov. Seveda pa je odločitev o taki, bom rekla, politiki, na nivoju Evropske unije zelo kompleksna. Imamo seveda države članice, ki imajo različne interese, in jih je kar lepo število, 27. Potem imamo seveda Evropski parlament, ki na stvari gleda drugače, ampak se zakonodajo sprejema v soodločanju. In potem imamo tudi nacionalne politike, ki so včasih zelo ekstremne. In zdaj, da se to vse skupaj dejansko na nek način uskladi in da pridemo potem do nekega rezultata, kakršen je pakt, kjer se v bistvu bo sprejelo devet pravnih aktov, ki bodo potem neposredno uporabni v praksi. To se mi zdi največji izziv. Ampak dejstvo je, da bo do tega prišlo in sem vesela zaradi tega, ker v resnici je to nek naslednji korak pri gradnji skupnega azilnega sistema ali pa pri upravljanju z migracijami. Kako pa bo potem to implementirano? To se mi zdi, pa je ključno vprašanje, ker če se zakonodaja, ki bo sprejeta, potem ne bo učinkovito implementirala v praksi, potem pa bomo imeli težave.

Voditelj: Eno od pričakovanj tudi Slovenije, če prav razumem, je, da bodo postopki na sami meji, ko pač bo migrant, zaprosil za azil, mednarodno zaščito, da bodo ti postopki z novim paktom hitrejši.

Gregori: Ja. Tako.

Voditelj: Je to pričakovanje realno, ustrezno?

Gregori: To je eden izmed ključnih elementov novega pakta. V bistvu govorimo o tako imenovanem razmerju ali pa poštenem razmerju med solidarnostjo in odgovornostjo. Na strani odgovornosti je element obveznega mejnega postopka. Pomeni, da tiste države članice, ki varujejo zunanjo mejo, bodo morale vzpostaviti zadostne kapacitete ob meji ali pa na mejni črti, kjer naj bi obravnavali ljudi, ki prihajajo iregularno preko meja Evropske unije. Ta tako imenovani obvezni mejni postopek omogoča hitre postopke z državljani tistih držav, ki v bistvu generalno gledano naj ne bi bili deležni mednarodne zaščite. Obravnava prosilcev bo še vedno individualna, ampak v tem obveznem postopku bodo v pospešenem postopku obravnavani tisti, ki prihajajo iz držav, kjer je <i>recognition rate</i>, to pomeni stopnja priznavanja mednarodne zaščite 20% ali manj v Evropski uniji in v tem smislu nekako je prepoznano, da prihajajo iz varnih držav izvora. Kot sem rekla, še vedno bo individualna obravnava, ampak ta postopek bo hiter, na nek način učinkovit in bo tudi prinašal neke efekte, ki bodo v bistvu generalno gledano onemogočali na dolgi rok delovanje tihotapcev, delovanje organiziranih skupin, ki v resnici izkoriščajo te ljudi s tem, da jih pripeljejo v Evropsko unijo kljub zavedanju, da najbrž individualne zaščite niso potrebni, ampak prihajajo v Evropsko unijo predvsem iz razloga zaposlitve, na nek način preživetja. Ob tem bo seveda Evropa morala odpreti tudi zakonite poti, kjer bodo ljudje pa na lažji način prišli v Evropsko unijo iz teh razlogov, iz ekonomskih razlogov. Ker vemo, da Evropska unija v prihodnje in tudi zdaj potrebuje na določenih segmentih trga dela že zdaj očitno tujce, ljudi, ki bodo pripravljeni seveda delati in se pripravljeni integrirati v Evropski uniji in živeti.

Voditelj: Ampak to je še vedno nacionalna pristojnost. Agencija s tem nima še nobene vloge. Se mogoče načrtuje kakšna taka sprememba?

Gregori: Ja. Kar se tiče mandata agencije, v bistvu agencija lahko pomaga državam članicam samo takrat, ko govorimo o delovanju azilnega sistema. To pomeni, mi smo že zdaj prisotni v 12 državah članicah, kjer pomagamo tem državam na različnih segmentih. V določenih državah pomagamo samo na segmentu recepcije v tem smislu, da pomagamo državam zagotoviti zadosten nivo kapacitet, recimo nastanitvenih kapacitet. Tako smo prisotni na Nizozemskem in smo prisotni tudi v Belgiji, kjer državam pomagamo tudi s tako imenovanimi nastanitvenimi enotami, kjer jim dobavljamo take nastanitvene enote.

Voditelj: Lahko samo vskočim. To je zanimivo. Namreč Belgija in Nizozemska nista majhni državi, pa v bistvu potrebujeta nastanitvene kapacitete.

Gregori: Ja, res je.

Voditelj: Kako to? Če spremljate v Sloveniji, imamo tudi velike razprave o tem, kje namestiti, koliko in kako naprej. Kljub temu, da je Slovenija majhna država. 

Gregori: Drži, to je posledica tako imenovanih sekundarnih migracij. Državljani tretjih držav, torej tujci vstopajo seveda na zunanjih mejah Evropske unije in potem v bistvu zaprosijo za mednarodno zaščito ali pa tudi ne. V prvi državi članici, kjer vstopijo, ali pa potem v drugi, ne vem. V slovenskem primeru večkrat vstopajo, seveda, na primer potujejo čez države Zahodnega Balkana in potem seveda vstopajo na Hrvaškem, pa ni nujno, da tam zaprosijo za zaščito. Lahko zaprosijo potem v Sloveniji ali pa še celo v Avstriji, odvisno od organizirane poti. Največkrat so ti prehodi oziroma potovanja organizirana, tako kot sem prej rekla, s strani organiziranih tihotapskih mrež in organiziranega kriminala. Ampak dejstvo je, da so ciljne države znotraj Evropske unije, pa že dolga leta je ta statistika nespremenjena. V bistvu največ prosilcev za mednarodno zaščito še vedno beleži Nemčija. Druga lansko leto je bila potem Francija. Potem je tukaj Španija in seveda tudi Nizozemska, Belgija sta definitivno visoko, ko govorimo o statistiki prosilcev za mednarodno zaščito in se soočajo s težavami nastanitvenih kapacitet. V lanskem letu, torej 2023, smo videli res porast prihoda državljanov iz tretjih držav, ki so zaprosili za mednarodno zaščito v Evropski uniji. Beležili smo 1,1 milijona prosilcev za mednarodno zaščito, ob tem smo pa imeli seveda v Evropski uniji tudi 4, 4 milijone državljanov, ki so prišli iz Ukrajine in so bili registrirani kot tisti, ki so deležni začasne zaščite. In seveda, cela številka je največja po drugi svetovni vojni, tako da definitivno se migracije v Evropsko unijo povečujejo. 

Voditelj: Pred vami je očitno še veliko dela. Ampak za Slovenijo zdaj, ko spremljamo te razprave o namestitvenih kapacitetah, kaj lahko tukaj stori agencija oziroma na kakšen način že pomagate, če pomagate? In kaj se še lahko pričakuje v prihodnje? 

Gregori: Ja, naša agencija je prisotna tudi v Republiki Sloveniji. Imamo podpisan tako imenovani operativni načrt, kjer pomagamo tako Ministrstvu za notranje zadeve kot Uradu za nastanitev in oskrbo migrantov na obeh segmentih, torej na azilnem segmentu. To pomeni, pomagamo pri določenih postavitvah azilnih ali pa olajšamo vzpostavitev azilnih postopkov, pa pri dublinskih postopkih. Medtem ko pri uradu smo poskušali, smo jim pomagali recimo s prevajalci za določene jezike, tudi vzpostavili, poskušali smo jim pomagati vzpostaviti določene postopke na nek način, da bi lažje obravnavali situacijo, kjer so bili res pod določenimi pritiski. Smo pa imeli tudi neke tehnične razgovore za to, da bi agencija pomagala tudi s temi nastanitvenimi kapacitetami. Tako kot sem že prej dejala, tako kot delamo na Nizozemskem, v Belgiji, tudi v drugih državah. Lani smo bili prisotni z recepcijo, ampak nekako ni prišlo potem do dogovora, kje v bistvu bi agencija te nastanitvene kapacitete lahko postavila. Tako da če bi do tega dogovora prišlo, bi seveda mi lahko pomagali tudi na ta način.

Voditelj: To pomeni kaj? V sredstvih, finančno, materialno?

Gregori: Ne, finančno agencija nima možnosti ali pa mandata pomagati neposredno. Mi pomagamo z napotitvijo svojih strokovnjakov. To pomeni, agencija ima trenutno 1500 strokovnjakov, ki delajo v 12 državah članicah Evropske unije na različnih področjih. Tako kot sem rekla, če pogledamo azil in azilni postopek, naši strokovnjaki v bistvu delajo na vseh segmentih postopka, pomeni, da smo tam prisotni in pomagamo državam članicam s tako imenovanimi informacijami v postopku, potem pomagamo s prevajalci, lahko pomagamo tudi z informacijami o državah izvora, lahko izvajamo intervjuje s prosilci za mednarodno zaščito. In potem tudi pišemo mnenja. Ne moremo pa izdati končne odločitve. Tako kot sem rekla na začetku, končna odločitev pa je vedno v rokah države članice. Teh pristojnosti nimamo.

Voditelj: Je Slovenija, nekako številka je, nazadnje, ko smo slišali, da je 60 000 nezakonitih prehodov meja v lanskem letu. Je to velika številka v kontekstu Evropske unije, zunanje meje Evropske unije? Kako velik problem je to za eno državo, kot je Slovenija? V čem je problem?

Gregori: Slovenija ima res neko specifiko. Res je, da tako kot ste omenili, številka očitno statistična je taka, kot je, ampak v Sloveniji, Slovenija je očitno tranzitna država in to je v bistvu neka specifika, ki ni samo slovenska. Tudi Hrvaška na ta način je tranzitna država. Tudi določene države na vzhodni meji so tranzitne. Ampak za Slovenijo je značilno to, da ljudje, ki prihajajo v Slovenijo, zaprosijo za mednarodno zaščito. Postopek se začne. Seveda iz tega izhajajo določene pravice prosilcem in seveda Slovenija poskuša zagotoviti nastanitev v skladu s standardi Evropske unije. Obravnavo ranljivih, poskuša zagotoviti seveda tudi začetek postopka. Potem pa ti ljudje samovoljno zapustijo državo. To je očitno iz statističnih podatkov. In potem ti ljudje enostavno gredo v druge države, največkrat v Avstrijo, in tam zaprosijo za mednarodno zaščito in v bistvu sistem, torej delovanje sistema v Evropski uniji, ne samo v Sloveniji, je tako, da ko prosilec zaprosi za zaščito v naslednji državi članici, se sproži tako imenovani dublinski postopek. In ta država v bistvu je dolžna na nek način vrniti prosilca v državo, kjer je najprej zaprosil. Tako da v tem smislu pa ta sistem, torej dublinski, ne deluje tako, kot je bil zamišljen. V bistvu ne samo v Sloveniji, v tem kontekstu ne izpostavljam samo Slovenije. Dejstvo je, da ljudje, ki so prvič zaprosili za zaščito v Grčiji, na primer, in takih je res veliko, potujejo potem po raznih poteh, na primer največkrat po zahodnobalkanski poti, in končajo v Nemčiji. Tam ponovno zaprosijo za mednarodno zaščito. Vendar je manjši odstotek ljudi, ki so potem vrnjeni nazaj v Grčijo. Zdaj naša agencija je skupaj z agencijo Frontex in Europolom naredila kar obsežno analizo teh sekundarnih gibanj. Kaj so razlogi, zakaj v bistvu ljudje grejo v določene ciljne države. Ta zadeva je zelo kompleksna. Ne moreš kar enoznačno reči zaradi tega, ker na nek način Nemčija nam ponuja boljše, ugodnejše pogoje in tako naprej. Govorimo o več faktorjih. Pomembna je diaspora. Pomembno je to, da ljudje že imajo neke socialne povezave. Pomembno je to, kako se obnaša trg dela, kakšni so potem pogoji za socialno zaščito, kakšni so pogoji za zdravstveno zaščito in tako naprej. Tako da teh faktorjev je res ogromno in se na nek način tudi spreminjajo. Ampak novi pakt bo v bistvu še vedno obdržal to pravilo obravnavanja ali pa pristojnosti obravnavanja države, v kateri prosilec prvič zaprosi. Zaradi tega, ker če ne bi bilo tega pravila, bi pa imeli situacijo, kakršno smo imeli leta 2004, ko je bila prvič sprejeta dublinska uredba, kjer je bil tako imenovani 'asylum shopping', kjer so pa dejansko ljudje prehajali. Na nek način države niso vedele, kolikokrat so ljudje že zaprosili za zaščito, kje so zaprosili, kako so potem prehajali. In na nek način so si sami izbirali državo, v kateri bi želeli živeti. V kontekstu zakonodajnega okvira to v Evropi pač ni možno. Mislim, Evropa ali pa evropske države želijo upravljati z migracijami na način, kjer bodo pravila jasna za vse, tudi za prosilce za mednarodno zaščito, seveda pa tudi jasna državljanom Evropske unije in seveda tretjim državam, ki so partnerske države v tem kontekstu.

Voditelj: Vse te teme povzročajo precej negotovosti v javnosti, če lahko tako rečem. Azil, zaščita, begunci, migranti. Vse to se pojavlja vsak dan ne samo v slovenski, tudi evropski javnosti. Smo namreč pred evropskimi volitvami, kjer vprašanja azila, azilantov predstavljajo pomembno politično temo. Kako to vpliva na vaše delo? Da je to v bistvu osrednja tema pred evropskimi volitvami?

Gregori: Ja, načeloma seveda naša agencija ni politična organizacija. Mi smo tehnična agencija, ki zagotavlja podporo državam članicam pri izvajanju zakonodaje, ki pa je na nek način politična. Vsaka potrditev zakona bodisi v nacionalnem parlamentu ali pa seveda na nivoju Evropske unije je na nek način političen akt. Dejstvo je, da zakonodaja včasih ravno zaradi tega kompleksnega postopka sprejemanja in teh akterjev, ki so v sprejem zakonodaje vključeni, je polna nekih kompromisov. In ravno zato je naša agencija pomembna, ker ob tem, da seveda tehnično, operativno pomagamo državam članicam, kako naj rečem, 'boots on the ground', da smo prisotni tam in da pomagamo z eksperti pri konkretnem izvajanju postopkov. Mi v bistvu imamo še dva zelo pomembna sklopa znotraj agencije. En sklop je priprava tako imenovanih orodij za boljše izvajanje zakonodaje. Če pogledamo, na primer, agencija izdaja redno informacijo o državah izvora. Noben azilni postopek ne more v bistvu biti, se ne more končati brez preverjanja objektivnih informacij v državi izvora konkretnega prosilca za mednarodno zaščito. In to naša agencija v bistvu, to je osnovno vodilo naše agencije, da zagotavljamo objektivne informacije o državah izvora in tranzita, ki jih države potem uporabijo v svojih azilnih postopkih. Zagotavljamo tudi različna 'guidance' ... 

Voditelj: Navodila.

Gregori: Navodila, se iskreno opravičujem, državam, kjer v bistvu jim omogočamo s tehničnimi pomočjo ali s pomočjo tehničnih orodij, da lahko na lažji način izvajajo določene postopke, opravljajo intervjuje, tako kot sem rekla. Potem imamo tudi, recimo smo izdali določena navodila glede izvajanja postopkov s pomočjo ICT tehnologije. To pomeni postopki, ki se opravljajo ne osebno, ampak s pomočjo video orodij. Tako da v tem smislu ogromno teh zadev seveda imamo, jih imajo države članice na voljo in s tem na nek način tudi zagotavljamo, da se potem sprejeta zakonodaja izvaja na enak način v 27 državah. Potem imamo pa še en ogromen segment, trening, torej naš trening center, kjer v bistvu nudimo konstantno podporo državam članicam skozi enake, bom rekla, tudi te module treninga. In okrog 80.000 ljudi je šlo že skozi trening center. To so pa seveda strokovnjaki s področja azila iz držav članic, kjer jim omogočamo, da z uporabo teh orodij in z uporabo treninga hitreje ali pa bolj učinkovito lahko svoje delo opravljajo v svojih državah.

Voditelj: Obstaja statistika mogoče, koliko časa poteka v povprečju postopek pridobivanja azila in mogoče med državami, po državah? Kje je najdaljše, najkrajše in kje je tukaj Slovenija, recimo?

Gregori: Imamo tako statistiko, jo vodimo v agenciji po državah članicah. Dejstvo pa je, da je razlika očitna, ko govorimo o prvi stopnji, to pomeni na nivoju administrativnega postopka, in potem, ko govorimo tudi o drugi stopnji, ker potem imamo seveda tudi v postopku zaščite je vedno možnost pritožbe in ta možnost je potem v različnih jurisdikcijah zelo različna. Določene države imajo dvostopenjski postopek. Na drugi stopnji imajo celo tristopenjski postopek. In tukaj se države zelo razlikujejo med sabo in seveda, to je v rokah držav članic. V tem smislu so postopki lahko zelo dolgotrajni, traja lahko tudi do pet let, medtem ko je ravno pakt tisti, ki naj bi omogočil hitre in učinkovite postopke vsaj na prvi stopnji. Pomeni, da bi na nek način bilo jasno v postopku zelo hitro, ali je nekdo upravičen do mednarodne zaščite ali pa seveda temu ni tako.

Voditelj: Mogoče obstaja podatek, koliko je pozitivno od vseh vlog, koliko je pozitivno rešenih, ugodenih, dobijo zaščito?

Gregori: Povprečni odstotek v Evropski uniji je bil lansko leto, 2023, je bil 41 %. 41 % pomeni, da dejansko kar 60 % tistih, ki so zaprosili za zaščito v Evropski uniji, do zaščite ni bilo upravičenih. V Sloveniji je ta odstotek zelo podoben, 43 %, mislim, da je bilo. Kaj se potem zgodi s temi ljudmi? Tisti, ki do mednarodne zaščite niso upravičeni, v bistvu potem pridejo v fazo vračanja. In tukaj ima pa Evropska unija še kar določene težave. Dejstvo je, da za vračanje teh oseb mora biti zelo dobro sodelovanje z državo izvora, ker država izvora je tista, ki v bistvu te osebe, sprejme nazaj. To ni neposredno v mandatu naše agencije, ampak pomoč pri vračanju izvaja agencija za zunanjo mejo, torej Frontex. In oni poskušajo zagotoviti, bom rekla, učinkovite postopke vračanja s tem, da zagotavljajo skupne lete, kjer omogočajo državam članicam, da lahko z določenim sodelovanjem agencije te postopke zaključijo. Je pa res, da tukaj je ključno vprašanje sodelovanja z državami izvora, včasih tudi z državami tranzita in določene tretje države seveda sodelujejo, bom rekla, bolj redno. Določene države, bom rekla, nekako stvari pogojujejo, recimo z oblikami druge pomoči, tako da so različni modeli. Ampak dejstvo je, da pakt na nek način ne bo uspešno implementiran, če ta segment vračanja ne bo učinkovit. To je pa zelo očitno.

Voditelj: Namreč, seveda, ko se ukvarjamo z azili in s temi postopki in tako naprej, imamo pred seboj vedno človeka. To je verjetno izhodišče in v tem poročilu za leto 2023 tudi navajate poročila mednarodnih organizacij in civilne družbe glede praks, ki ovirajo učinkovit dostop do zaščite. Skratka, civilna družba in ostale človekoljubne organizacije opozarjajo na določene težave v vseh teh postopkih, ki spremljajo ljudi. V kakšno korist so vam te organizacije in koliko jih v bistvu upoštevate pri teh ocenah, ukrepih in tako naprej? 

Gregori: Ja, poročila nevladnih organizacij so seveda za nas zelo pomembna. Dejstvo je, da agencija je z novim mandatom pridobila tudi mandat monitoringa, tako da agencija je morala vzpostaviti metodologijo monitoringa, torej nadzorovanja tehničnega izvajanja skupnega evropskega azilnega sistema. In ravno prejšnji teden, v bistvu teden nazaj, je upravni odbor agencije potrdil to metodologijo, na podlagi katere bo agencija lahko začela izvajati monitoring, pomeni, da bomo dejansko imeli možnost po nekem seznamu, ki ga bo potrdil upravni odbor v naslednjih dneh, iti v države članice s tako imenovanimi monitoring timi in bomo imeli priložnost v bistvu na podlagi te metodologije ugotoviti, kakšni so v bistvu pogoji izvajanja zakonodaje v državah članicah, kje so mogoče kakšne nepravilnosti ali pa kje so evidentirane pomanjkljivosti. In v tem smislu bomo potem lahko predlagali določene ukrepe. Seveda ne bomo mogli predlagati sankcij. Agencija nima take moči. To je v rokah Evropske komisije, ki je čuvar Evropske pogodbe. Dejstvo pa je, da bomo imeli to dodatno funkcijo, bomo seveda lahko nakazali, kje bi bilo stvari treba izboljšati. In tukaj nam bodo tudi ta poročila civilne družbe seveda v veliko pomoč. Dejstvo je, da metodologija omogoča dialog s civilno družbo in nam omogoča tudi, da se te relevantne informacije potem preverijo tudi na terenu. In v tem smislu se mi zdi, da bo ta del še posebej pomemben, ko bo agencija začela z monitoringom.

Voditelj: Ker se že približujeva limitu, me ena čisto načelna zadeva zanima, ali se ukvarjate z vprašanji človekovih pravic? Konec koncev postopki, ki jih spremljajo že praktično celo poklicno kariero. Ti standardi so bili sprejeti enkrat po drugi svetovni vojni. Po neki v strašni zgodbi, strašnih dogodkih se je človeštvo odločilo postaviti nek standard in so bili osnovani na eni izkušnji. Zdaj se po 70, 75 letih neke nove okoliščine pojavljajo. Ti postopki se spreminjajo. Koliko daleč smo v Evropski uniji s temi standardi od teh izvornih standardov? Koliko se je to spremenilo, koliko se je ta optika spremenila, pravila? Smo še vedno blizu tem idejnim rešitvam ali je to zdaj povsem nekaj drugega? 

Gregori: Ja. Skupni evropski azilni sistem temelji v resnici seveda na Ženevski konvenciji. To je fundament obravnave prosilcev za mednarodno zaščito. In definitivno je dokument, ki še vedno velja. In prav je tako. Ampak razvoj, tudi geopolitične spremembe, ki se dogajajo okrog Evropske unije, pa stalno na nek način vabijo k novim razmislekom. In se mi zdi, da tako kot sva prej govorila na začetku o paktu in kako je zdaj ta pakt, ki je bil predlagan v obliki uredb, skoraj nekaj nepredstavljivega, če pogledam nazaj v leto 1999, kjer države članice, ko so začele govoriti o tej ideji skupnega evropskega azilnega sistema, niti slučajno niso bile pripravljene, da bi to bile uredbe, ki bi jih neposredno, takoj izvajale. Ampak z razvojem te zakonodaje, seveda smo zdaj prišli do neke točke, kjer z implementacijo pakta res lahko zagotovimo, če bodo pravilno implementirali, da bomo imeli koherentno upravljanje z migracijami na nivoju EU, kar bo seveda samo pozitivno. Ampak to pa še ne pomeni, da se bo s tem ta nek pogovor o mednarodni zaščiti ali pa o zaščiti ljudi tudi na nekem globalnem nivoju končal. Jaz mislim, da ne. Jaz mislim in že zdaj se vidi, da določene države članice razmišljajo, bom rekla vnaprej, da razmišljajo o tem, kako bi pa zdaj mogoče sodelovanje z nekimi tretjimi državami okrepili, kako bi lahko na nek način obravnavali prosilce za mednarodno zaščito že blizu držav izvora. Kako bi lahko mogoče potencialno naše standarde prenesli tja. Recimo koncept <i>resettlementa</i>, ki je star 50 let in več, ki je bil v drugi svetovni vojni, tudi je nastal iz neke potrebe, kjer so ljudje daleč od EU potrebovali zaščito, ki so jo seveda na nek način dobili, pa je tam niso mogli. Enostavno niso bili varni, kljub temu da so pribežali na neko varno območje, pa so se države odločile, da jih bodo preko <i>resettlementa</i> seveda pripeljale v Evropo kot nek varen kontinent ali varno okolje. V tem kontekstu so te stvari ciklične. Ampak fundament Ženevske konvencije pa obstaja. Bili so poskusi, predvsem politični, v tem smislu razmisleka o Ženevski konvenciji. Ampak jaz verjamem, da bo to še nekaj časa ostalo osnova mednarodne zaščite. Tam so prepoznane vse pravice prosilcev, tudi, bom rekla, dolžnosti držav, kako jih je treba spoštovati in ljudi, ki prihajajo iz nekih vojnih območij ali pa tam, kjer so individualno seveda ogroženi, kako se jih procesira. V tem smislu je to neka taka osnova za vse, za obravnavo vseh nadaljnjih politik. In jaz iskreno verjamem, da se ta osnova še dolgo časa ne bo spremenila. 

Voditelj: Skratka, mogoče na koncu, ko vidim, da je povezano vprašanje namestitev, postopkov in tako naprej. Ljudje govorijo, strah nas je teh ljudi. Imate kakšen odgovor na to? Vi se ukvarjate s tem iz Malte, ampak se na terenu veliko in tudi drugod zasledujete prisoten strah med ljudmi, ki morajo te ljudi sprejemati, azilante, begunce, migrante. 

Gregori: Različne države članice v Evropski uniji imajo na nek način različne zgodovinske izkušnje. Tako kot je imela zgodovinsko izkušnjo naša država ob osamosvojitvi, kjer so ljudje iz vojne na Zahodnem Balkanu pribežali v Slovenijo, in to v velikih številkah. Takrat je bilo, mislim, da okrog 55 000 beguncev, ki so prišli z območja bivše Jugoslavije in v bistvu smo jih tukaj sprejeli in so bili obravnavani na nek način integracijsko. Otroci so hodili v šole, ljudje so poskušali dobiti potem tudi delo in tako naprej. To je neka slovenska, bom rekla, izkušnja, ki ni še tako zelo stara, mislim, ni še tako zelo daleč nazaj. Dejstvo pa je, da različne države članice v Evropski uniji imajo različne izkušnje. Če pogledate na primer Nizozemsko, je bila, bom rekla, klasična država priseljevanja dolga leta. Bili so tudi kolonialna država. Ljudje so prihajali in odhajali. Tudi Malta, kjer ima sedež agencija, je v podobni situaciji. Tako da jaz mislim, da je določene strahove ljudi, ki so lahko upravičeni, je treba samo pravilno naglaševati in o tem tudi govoriti, razpravljati, komunicirati. Ljudje bodo vedno prihajali v Evropsko unijo. Upam, da bo Evropska unija vedno ostajala neko varno zavetišče. Konflikti okrog nas so očitni, konflikti tudi v oddaljenih, mogoče geografsko gledano, kontinentih, se dogajajo, ampak Evropska unija z nekim nivojem zagotavljanja zaščite bo vedno v tem smislu ali naj bi bila nek varen pristan za ljudi, ki so preganjani. Kako jih pa potem integriramo v družbo, kako v bistvu jim omogočamo, da začnejo samostojno življenje, kako jim omogočimo, da v bistvu poskušajo živeti z nami, to je pa drugo vprašanje in v tem smislu se mi zdi, da bi lahko ne samo Slovenija, ampak tudi druge države članice na nek način morale narediti več. Ko pa govorimo o nekem, bom rekla, o kriminalu, ko govorimo o varnosti, za to pa imamo seveda določene segmente v državah, ki pa morajo seveda funkcionirati na ta način. Tega ne smemo zanemariti ali pa pozabiti. Ja, dejstvo je, da je to neka ogromna sestavljanka pomembnih elementov, kjer vsi na nek način morajo delovati, da potem v neki družbi ne pride do eskalacije ali pa da ne pride do nekih težav. 

Voditelj: Na tej točki morava končati, ker se nama je čas iztekel, in verjetno je to tudi tema, ki bi ji lahko namenila naslednjih 45 minut. Tako da najlepša hvala za odziv, za pogovor. 

Gregori: Hvala še enkrat za vabilo. Zelo sem hvaležna in ja, zelo zanimiv pogovor je bil. Hvala. 



[ENGLISH VERSION]    
Gov.si, the Government Podcast

Host Zoran Potič: Welcome to our new Gov.si podcast, produced by the Government Communication Office. I'm Zoran Potič and I'm joined by a very interesting guest, Nina Gregori, who has an extremely interesting career behind her and ahead of her. She has worked abroad since 2019. She can tell us what her job is and why it's so interesting, if that's the case.

Executive Director of the EU Agency for Asylum Nina Gregori: First of all, thank you for inviting me. I'm pleased that I can be here. Since 2019, I have been working in Malta, were I'm the Executive Director of the EU Agency for Asylum. Before 2022, the agency was known as the European Asylum Support Office, but we got a new, stronger mandate, and we've been known as the Agency for Asylum since then. Its mandate is to assist 27 member states, and it's based in Malta. 

Host: We'll return to your work later. This podcast is devoted in part to the 20th anniversary of Slovenia's EU accession. You have a wealth of experience in this area. What are your memories of the period when Slovenia joined the EU? And how did your experiences contribute to your professional growth? 

Gregori: I'm proud to say that I grew up in Slovenia's administrative system. I began my career at the Ministry of Internal Affairs and spent my whole life working there before going abroad. In 1999, when we became a candidate for membership, the accession negotiations began, and we had to adapt Slovenia's legislation covering internal affairs, from Chapter 24 of the EU Acquis, I was the member of a working group at the Ministry of Internal Affairs, where we began the process of adapting the legislation. It was a large working group, whose members also worked with the Justice Ministry. It was a very positive period of my life and career. We worked a lot but we also had plenty of drive, so the results were apparent very quickly. The periods when we were tested as candidates in Brussels were very interesting. They checked if our legislation was in line with EU legislation to such an extent that they could close Chapter 24. We collaborated with the Foreign Ministry and the newly founded European Affairs Office. Mr. Potočnik was the head of the core negotiating team, Mr. Bavčar was the Minister Without Portfolio for European Affairs, and Mr. Rupel was the Foreign Minister. They coordinated the work of all the ministries, while we at the Interior Ministry had our own working group, which was headed by State Secretary Debelak. Mr. Genorio was also very important. He is still active in foreign and European affairs. We not only had to coordinate the legislation, but we had EU funds available to do that. Through the projects, we could also adapt other things, not just the legislation. For instance, we had to start issuing EU documents in 2004, when we became a member. We had to adapt these things to the EU, so I've been traveling to Brussels for these meetings since 1999. 

Host: You haven't grown tired of them? 

Gregori: I haven't. My enthusiasm about the European idea is growing even stronger because I strongly believe that Slovenia is a part of Europe and can play an important role, as we've repeatedly shown. It would be nice to see some more European spirit at home. 

Host: We'll talk about that later. This European spirit... You've headed your agency for five years. A few weeks ago, you got another five-year mandate. Does that mean that your bosses are satisfied with your work? You're a Slovenian in an administrative position who is at the highest level of the EU structure.

Gregori: I should make it clear that the European Agency for Asylum is one of 54 decentralized agencies, where the jurisdiction is clearly defined by a special regulation. We have links with the European Commission and Commissioner Johansson is currently responsible for internal affairs on the EU level. The Directorate-General for Internal Affairs, DG Home, has the authority to oversee the agency. The selection of the Executive Director is the responsibility of the member states, so I'm happy that the confirmation of my five-year mandate was unanimous. All 28 members of the board, which represent the member states, made it clear they were satisfied with my work and would like me to head the agency over the next five years. The mandate of the agency has indeed grown stronger. As you know, the Pact on Migration and Asylum is currently being drafted and approved in Brussels, and the agency will play a key role in implementing it. 

Host: If you could describe that in more detail...  Asylum, migrants, and refugees: these are topics that aren't just interesting for Slovenia, but are a Europe-wide issue. You say that the role of the agency has been strengthened. In what sense? What will change? What's new about this pact? 

Gregori: In terms of migration management on the EU level, this comes under EU jurisdiction. The member states retain a measure of sovereignty, primarily in the field of asylum because they make decisions about who gets asylum and who doesn't. However, migration management is entirely in the hands of the EU. 

Host: So the jurisdiction of a country in the asylum process remains in national hands? 

Gregori: That's right. But the policy is becoming ever more European and coordinated. 

Host: What does this mean? 

Gregori: If we look at its origins, we see that the Council of Europe decided in 1999, as part of its Tampere Conclusions, to develop a joint European asylum system. Since 1999, this system has been set up. The European Commission proposed the first set of legislation in 2001, and the member states, without the participation of Parliament, which didn't have such a role at the time, approved the legislation, but the legislation was in the form of directives. The members states had a certain period of time to transfer the directives into their national legislation. The joint European asylum system was then built via new legal instruments, such as the Dublin Regulation, which determines the jurisdiction of countries for international protection claims. The new Migration and Asylum Pact, which should be confirmed by the European Parliament on April 10 and the Council in June, will enable us to have an even more stable joint European asylum system because all the legislation will be in the form of regulations. This means that the members will need to carry out the legislation directly, which will allow the legislation to be carried out in a more coherent manner. This will mean that if someone makes an international protection claim in any of the 27 EU member states, the decision will be made according to the same rules and will be uniform. For instance, if an Afghan citizen requests protection in Slovenia, Austria, or Finland, he'll receive a decision that was made according to the same rules and is therefore the same. He would either receive protection or not. The differences between systems are still apparent today. The role of our agency is to help member states to carry out this policy in a unified manner. If the pact helps to ensure greater coherence in the decision-making process, the agency is tasked to prepare tools that help member states to carry out the policy as consistently as possible. 

Host: Member states have quite a few expectations from this pact, and Slovenia is one of them. What does this mean for Slovenia, which is facing significant impacts from migrants and refugees? What will Slovenia get from this pact? 

Gregori: If we look at it broadly, we see that good migration management contains five key elements. First, an effective protection of the external borders. Second, a quick and effective international protection process that contains all the procedural guarantees for the claimants. Third, a quick and fair repatriation process for those who don't need protection. Fourth, there's the issue of integration within the EU for those who stay in the EU. Fifth, we have cooperation with countries of origin and transit. All these elements must fall in place. Even if one of them isn't effective, the relationships break down. That's why it's so difficult to manage migrations in the EU, where there are still so many national systems and things aren't standardized and connected. We also have problems with the integration of large IT systems, where we've set up a Schengen system, a visa system, the Eurodac system for asylum claims, and these systems aren't interconnected. We have quite a few challenges like that, and the pact is supposed to address all of them. It offers solutions for the effective implementation of all these elements. Of course, any decision about a EU-level policy is very complex. Member states have different interests and there are 27 of them. We also have the European Parliament, which sees these things differently, but this legislation is passed via a joint decision-making process. We also have policies on the national level, and they can be extreme at times. Coordinating all this, so we can get an outcome like this pact, where nine legislative acts will be enacted, all of which will have real-life applications, is our biggest challenge. But the fact is that this will happen, and I'm glad because this is the next step toward setting up a joint asylum or migration management system. However, the key question is how this will be implemented. If the passed legislation isn't implemented in practice, we'll have problems. 

Host: One of Slovenia's expectations is that the procedures on the border, when a migrant claims asylum or international protection, the process under this pact will be quicker. 

Gregori: Yes. That's right. 

Host: Is that a realistic and appropriate expectation? 

Gregori: This is one of the key elements of the new pact. We're talking about a fair solidarity/responsibility ratio. The responsibility part requires a mandatory border-crossing process. This means that the EU members with external borders will need to establish sufficient capacities on the border where they will process people who cross the EU border irregularly. The mandatory border-crossing process enables expedited procedures for citizens from countries that, generally speaking, don't qualify for international protection. The consideration will still be on an individual basis, but the mandatory process will expedite the process for claimants from countries where the recognition rate for international protection is 20 percent or less in the EU. This recognizes that they come from safe countries of origin. The consideration will be on an individual basis, but the process will be fast, efficient, and effective in terms of preventing the work of human smugglers, who are taking advantage of these people by bringing them into the EU despite knowing that they probably don't need individual protection but are coming into the EU primarily to find employment or to make a living. The EU will also need to open up legal pathways, so people will be able to enter the EU more easily for those reasons, for economic reasons. 

Host: We know that the EU apparently needs immigrants in some segments of the labor market, people who are prepared to work and to integrate into the EU. But that still comes under national jurisdiction. The agency plays no role in that. 

Gregori: That's right. 

Host: Are any changes planned in this regard? 

Gregori: In terms of its mandate, the agency can help member states only in the context of the asylum system. We're already present in twelve member states, and we help those countries in various areas. In some countries, we only help with intake by helping them to ensure sufficient housing capacities. That's how we operate in the Netherlands and Belgium, where we help those countries using housing units, which we provide for them.

Host: If I may interrupt, it's interesting that Belgium and the Netherlands aren't border countries, but they still need housing facilities. 

Gregori: Right. 

Host: Why is that? In Slovenia, we also have major debates about where to house people and how many, even though we're no longer a border country.

Gregori: Indeed. That's the consequence of secondary migration. Citizens of non-EU countries enter the EU by crossing external borders and then may or may not ask for protection in the first member country, where they've entered the EU, or in the second country. In the case of Slovenia, we have people traveling through the Western Balkans and entering the EU in Croatia, but not necessarily claiming protection there. They can do that in Slovenia or even in Austria, depending on their organized route. In most cases, the crossings are organized by smugglers' networks and organized criminal associations. The fact is that among the EU destination countries, and this has been the case for years, Germany receives the most protection claims, followed last year by France and then Spain. The Netherlands and Belgium are also high on the list in terms of protection claims, so they're facing issues regarding housing facilities. In 2023, we saw a very real increase in the number of arrivals from third countries requesting international protection in the EU. There were 1.1 million international protection claims. At the same time, we had 4.4 million people who entered the EU from Ukraine and were registered for temporary protection. The overall number is the highest since World War II. So yes, the number of migrations into the EU is certainly increasing. 

Host: You have a lot of work ahead of you, but regarding Slovenia and the debate about housing facilities, what can the agency do? How are you helping if you're already helping, and what can we expect? 

Gregori: Our agency is also active in Slovenia. We've signed an operational plan, through which we're helping both the Interior Ministry and the Office for Support and Integration of Migrants in two segments: asylum, where we help to set up simpler asylum processes and Dublin procedures, while helping the office to obtain translators for some languages and set up procedures to better handle the situation, where the office had experienced pressure. We also held talks of a technical nature about the agency helping out with housing facilities, as we have been doing in Belgium, the Netherlands, and elsewhere. in Latvia, we were active in the intake process. However, we never reached an agreement about where the agency could set up these housing facilities. If we reach an agreement, we could help out this way. 

Host: Does this mean financially, in terms of resources? 

Gregori: No, the agency has no authority for direct financial assistance. We provide assistance by sending our experts. The agency currently has 1500 experts active in twelve EU member states covering various areas. If we look at asylum, our experts are active in all segments of the process. We're helping member states with information about the process, translators, information about countries of origin, and interviews with the claimants. We also author opinions, but we can't issue final decisions. The final decisions are always up to the member states. We don't have that authority. 

Host: According to the most recent numbers made public, Slovenia had some 60,000 illegal border crossings last year. Is that a large number in a EU context? How big of a problem is that for a country like Slovenia? 

Gregori: Slovenia is in a very specific situation. The numbers you mentioned are what they are, but Slovenia is a transit country. Slovenia is not the only country in that situation. Croatia is another transit country, as are other countries along the eastern border. What is typical for Slovenia is that people come into the country, claim international protection, and the process begins. This grants the claimants certain rights, and Slovenia is trying to ensure housing according to EU standards, to process the vulnerable, and to guarantee that the procedures get underway, but then these people voluntarily leave the country. This is evident from the statistical data. The people leave for other countries, most often for Austria. They ask for international protection there as well. The way the system works in the EU, not just in Slovenia, when someone claims protection in the next member state, the Dublin procedure is triggered, and that country is required to return the claimant to the country where the claim was initially made. In this context, the Dublin system isn't working as it was designed. I'm not just singling out Slovenia in this context. People who first claimed international protection in Greece, for instance, and there are many of them, then most often continue via the Balkan route and end up in Germany where they again claim protection, but the share of people who are returned to Greece is smaller. Our agency, in collaboration with Frontex and Europol, carried out an extensive analysis of these secondary movements, the reason why people go to certain countries. It's a complex matter. You can't simply say that it's because Germany provides better conditions. We're talking about many factors: the diaspora, preexisting social relationships, the needs of the labor market, conditions for social protection and healthcare, et cetera. There are many such factors, and they tend to change, but the new pact will retain the rule about the jurisdiction of the country in which the initial claim is made. Without this rule, we'd have a situation like the one before 2004, when the Dublin Regulation was first enacted. We had "asylum shopping," where people passed between countries, and no one knew how many times someone had made a protection claim and then crossed borders. They could pick the country in which they wanted to live. In the context of the legislative framework, this isn't possible in the EU. EU countries want to manage migration so that the rules are clear for everyone, including those claiming protection and citizens of the EU, as well as third countries, which are partner countries. All these topics are causing quite a bit of uncertainty among the public: asylum, protection, refugees, and migrants. This is the subject of public discussion not just in Slovenia, but throughout Europe. The European elections will be held soon, and the issue of asylum-seekers is an important political topic. 

Host: How does this affect your work? Is it the main issue in the run-up to the European elections? 

Gregori: In principle, our agency isn't a political organization. We're a technical body that helps member states to carry out legislation, which is political in a sense. Any legislation enacted either by national parliaments or on the EU level is a political act. Because of the complex process of passing legislation and the various players involved in the process, the resulting legislation is full of compromises. That's why our agency matters. In addition to helping countries operatively, and serving as the members' boots on the ground, and providing experts to help carry out certain procedures, we have two additional areas under our jurisdiction. One of them is preparing tools for an effective execution of the legislation. For instance, the agency regularly issues information about countries of origin. No asylum process can end without an examination of objective facts in the claimant's country of origin. This is a basic responsibility of our agency, to provide objective information about countries of origin and transit, which member states then use in asylum processes. We also provide guidance for countries, which we help with technical tools to facilitate certain processes, such as interviews. For instance, we also issued guidelines for conducting processes using ICT, meaning procedures that aren't conducted in person but using video tools. Member States have very many of these things available to them. We are thereby also ensuring that adopted legislation is implemented in the same way in 27 countries. Another large segment is training. We have a training centre where we offer constant support to Member States through the same training modules. About 80 000 people have gone through this training centre, asylum experts from the Member States, who can use these tools and training to do their work more effectively in their countries. 

Host: Is there a statistic on how long the process of getting asylum takes on average, in which countries it is longest or shortest and how Slovenia ranks in this regard? 

Gregori: Yes, we do keep these statistics, by Member States. The fact is that the difference is clear on the first level. meaning at the level of the administrative process, and on the second level as well. There is always the possibility of making an appeal in the international protection process. This option varies significantly between different jurisdictions. Certain countries have a two-level process, some even have a three-level process. So, countries differ in this very much. That is in the hands of the Member States. These processes can take very long, up to five years, while the Pact is supposed to make the processes quick and efficient at least at the first level, so that in the process it would very quickly become clear whether someone is eligible for international protection or not. 

Host: Is there any data on how many applications for protection are approved? 

Gregori: Yes. Last year, in 2023, the average in the European Union was 41 %. 41 % means that about 60 % of those who applied for international protection in the EU were not eligible. In Slovenia the percentage is very similar, I think it was 43 % last year. 

Host: What happens to those people? 

Gregori: Ineligible applicants enter the phase of returning. The EU still has some problems in this regard. Returning these people requires very good cooperation with the country of origin, because that is the country that takes them back. That is not in our agency's direct mandate, aid in returning is conducted by Frontex, the agency for border control. They try to provide efficient return procedures by providing flights that enable Member States to conclude these procedures through cooperation with the Agency. The key thing here is cooperation with countries of origin, sometimes transit countries as well. Certain countries cooperate more and regularly, while some countries condition things with other forms of aid, for instance. There are different models, but the fact is that the Pact will not be implemented successfully unless returning will be efficient, that is quite clear. When we are dealing with asylum and these procedures we are always dealing with a person, first and foremost. You have cited the report for the year 2023 by international organisations and civil society regarding practices that hinder efficient access to protection. In short, civil society and humanitarian organisations are highlighting the problems that people are having with these processes. How beneficial are these organisations to you and how much do you consider them in assessments, measures, etc. NGO reports are very important to us. With the new mandate, the Agency also received the mandate of monitoring. The Agency had to establish a monitoring methodology for overseeing the technical implementation of the CEAS. Just last week the Agency's board of directors ratified this methodology, with which it can now begin conducting the monitoring. That means that we will now be able to go to Member States, per a list that the board will pass in the coming days, with monitoring teams. We will be able to use this methodology to determine what the conditions for implementing legislation in Member States are like and reveal potential irregularities or flaws, which will allow us to recommend measures. Of course, the Agency cannot recommend sanctions, that is up to the European Commission, which is, of course, Guardian of the Treaties. But this additional function will allow us to indicate where improvements need to be made and civil society reports will be of great use to us in this. The methodology also enables dialogue with civil society and the examination of relevant information in the field as well. I think that this part will be particularly important once the Agency actually starts monitoring. 

Host: We are nearing the end. I have a very basic question. You have been dealing with human rights issues and the processes that monitor them for your entire career. Those standards were adopted some time after World War II. After certain horrific events, humanity decided to set some sort of standards, which were based on that experience. Now, after about 75 years, some new circumstances are appearing and these processes are changing. How different are current EU standards from the original ones? How much has it all changed, the optics, the rules? Are the conceptual designs still similar or are they now completely different? 

Gregori: The Common European Asylum System is based on the Geneva Convention, which is the basis for considering asylum seekers. It is definitely a document that still applies, and rightly so. But the developments and geopolitical changes around the EU constantly invite new considerations. We started by talking about the Pact and how the New Pact, which is in the form of regulations, is almost unimaginable if we look back to 1999, when Member States began discussing the idea of a common European asylum system and weren't even remotely ready to immediately implement these regulations. With the development of the legislation we have come to a point, where with the implementation we can provide, if implemented correctly, management with migration at the EU level, which would be positive. It does not mean that a conversation about international protection or protection of people on a global level is finished. I don't think so. It is obvious that certain Member States are thinking beforehand. They are thinking, how cooperation with some third countries could be better, how asylum seekers could be handled near their origin country, how we could bring our standards there. The concept of resettlement is more than 50 years old. It started in the 2nd World War. It developed, because people far from Europe needed protection. They got it, but they weren't safe there, despite the fact that they came to a safe area. The countries decided to bring them to Europe, on a safe continent or in a safe environment. In this context these things are cyclical. But the foundation of Geneva Convention exists. There were political attempts to rethink about the Geneva Convention. I believe it will stay the basis for international protection. The rights of the seekers and obligations of the states are acknowledged there. We have to comply with them and people from war zones or an area, where they are individually in danger, should be processed in a certain way. This is the basis for processing all future politics. I sincerely believe that this basis won't change for quite some time. 

Host: Maybe for the end ... I see the question is connected with placement and processes. People are saying that they are afraid of asylum seekers. Do you have an answer to that? 

Gregori: Yes. 

Host: You are in Malta, but on the ground a lot. Do you see elsewhere the same fear among people who have to accept asylum seekers, migrants? 

Gregori: Different EU States have different historical experiences. The same as our country had an experience upon the independence, when people from Western Balkans migrated to Slovenia from war zones. And in large numbers. There was around 55,000 refugees from the area of ex Yugoslavia. We accepted them here and they were handled in an integrative way. Children were going to schools and people tried to find work. This is a Slovenian experience and it's not so old. This hasn't happened a long time ago. But different Member States in the EU have different experiences. Let's look at the Netherlands. For many years, it was a classic immigration state. Colonial state. People were coming and going. Malta is in a similar situation. I think that certain fears, which could be justifiable, should be addressed correctly and discuss about them, communicate. People will be always coming to EU. I hope that EU shall stay a sort of safe haven. Conflicts around us are obvious. And the conflicts in faraway places, even continents, are happening. But the EU with a certain level of providing protection will always be or should be some kind of safe haven for refugees. How to integrate them in society, how to enable them to start living independently here, how we enable them that they try to live with us, that's another question. In this respect, not only Slovenia, but also other Member States, should do more in a way. When we talk about a crime or some kind of safety, we have certain segments in the states that should function. We shouldn't neglect or forget about it. This is a huge puzzle of important elements where everything should work, so there isn't an escalation or some kind of troubles. 

Host: Okay. We have to finish at this point, because the time has run out. This is probably the topic which could take another 45 minutes. 

Gregori: Yes. 

Host: Thank you for this conversation. 

Gregori: Thank you for the invitation. I am grateful for that. It was an interesting conversation.