GOVSI Podkast: Dobro zastavljen sistem zaščite in reševanja ključen za uspešno intervencijo

Te dni mineva eno leto od katastrofalnih poplav, ki so lanskega avgusta prizadele velik del Slovenije. Država se je hitro odzvala na dogodek izrednih razsežnosti, uspešno izpeljala intervencijo in kasneje tudi sprejela številne ukrepe za odpravljanje posledic poplav. Eden ključnih ljudi, ki so v tistih dneh vodili intervencijo in reševali življenja ljudi, je poveljnik Civilne zaščite Srečko Šestan.

Srečko Šestan je že vrsto let najprepoznavnejši obraz Civilne zaščite in eden od prvih, ki pomiri zaskrbljene ljudi, ko nastopijo krize. Od leta 1996 je zaposlen na Ministrstvu za obrambo, na področju varstva pred naravnimi in drugimi nesrečami pa je bil aktiven že pred tem. V 12 letih, odkar opravlja naloge poveljnika Civilne zaščite, je za spopadanje z nepredvidljivo naravo in drugimi nesrečami 16-krat aktiviral državne načrte zaščite in reševanja. V teh letih si je skozi številna vodenja intervencij pridobil zaupanje in spoštovanje ljudi. Je premišljen, strokoven, požrtvovalen, s čutom za pripadnost, solidarnost in humanitarnost.

Vabljeni k poslušanju in ogledu epizode.

[ENGLISH VERSION]
GOVSI Podcast: A well-designed system of protection and rescue is essential for a successful first response. 

It has been one year since the catastrophic floods affected a large part of Slovenia. The Government promptly responded to this extreme event and did much to ameliorate the immediate effects. Later, it also adopted many measures for flood recovery. One of the key people who led the first response and saved lives was Civil Protection Commander Srečko Šestan. 

Srečko Šestan has been the best-known representative of Civil Protection for many years and is one of the first to reassure worried people when a crisis arises. He has been employed at the Ministry of Defence since 1996, but was involved in protection against natural and other disasters even before that. In the 12 years of his service as the Civil Protection Commander, he activated the National Emergency Response Plan 16 times to fight the unpredictable effects of natural and other disasters. In leading many crisis responses over these years, he has earned people's trust and respect. He is thoughtful, professional, dedicated and has a sense of belonging, solidarity and humanitarianism.

 You are invited to listen and watch the episode. 

Transcript

Vladni podkast Govsi.

Voditeljica Petra Bezjak Cirman: Dober dan, gledalke in gledalci, poslušalke in poslušalci. Pred vami je deseta epizoda vladnega podkasta Govsi, ki ga pripravlja Urad vlade za komuniciranje. Moje ime je Petra Bezjak Cirman. Podkast pa lahko sprejmete, kjer koli poslušate podkaste, in se nanj naročite. Današnjega gosta ni treba posebej predstavljati, saj je poznan po vsej Sloveniji. Leta 2020 med epidemijo covida 19 je bil na Valu 202 izbran za ime leta, po avgustovskih poplavah lani pa je bil tudi med Delovimi osebnostmi za ime leta 2023. Z nami je Srečko Šestan. Dober dan.

Srečko Šestan: Dober dan.

Voditeljica: Srečko, nosite srečno ime. Kako vam to pomaga pri poklicu?

Šestan: No, jaz upam, da mi nič ne pomaga. Ne more mi nič pomagati, ampak ime, ki ga nosim, je pač nosilec sreče. Sam sem se na to ime težko privadil, bom rekel, kot otrok. Nekako mi ni bilo ali pa mi je bilo nerazumljivo. Srečko, vsi drugi so imeli drugačna imena, ampak na koncu, ko sem pa prišel na faks in nas je bilo 7 Srečkov v prvem letniku, sem bil presenečen. Takrat sem pa videl, da ni tako redko ime, kot sem ga jaz v domačem okolju doživljal.

Voditeljica: Se vas je v tem času prijel kakšen vzdevek, da so vas ločili od ostalih sedmih?

Šestan: Tam na fakulteti smo imeli kakšne vzdevke, ampak verjemite, da sem pozabil. Ne vem. Imeli pa smo neke vzdevke. Morda ne vsi, ampak nekateri.

Voditeljica: To vas sprašujem zaradi lanskoletne v bistvu tragedije, če lahko rečemo, najobsežnejših poplav, kar jih pomnimo v Sloveniji, ampak hkrati na eni strani smo imeli srečo, saj ni bilo nobene smrtne žrtve. Zakaj je bilo tako?

Šestan: No, moram popraviti. Nekako štejejo noter vsaj naši MNZ-jevci tri smrtne žrtve v te poplave. Jaz nisem še zasledil, da bi bilo dokazano, da je to res neposredno zaradi tega. Ampak kljub temu je ta številka relativno majhna, predvsem če primerjamo to s podobnimi poplavami, ki so bile pred dvema letoma v Nemčiji in Grčiji, kjer so imeli veliko višje številke. Jaz to pripisujem tudi temu, da smo že kar vsaj 15 let, bom temu rekel, tako organizirani oz. dogovorjeni na način, da Arso, ko razglasi rdeče opozorilo, skliče tiskovno konferenco, na kateri je tudi prisoten poveljnik civilne zaščite ali pa kdo drug iz civilne zaščite, če je potrebno, in pa seveda vsi tisti, ki pri tem sodelujejo, vodarji, geologi in podobno. In na teh konferencah javnost preko medijev obvestimo, kaj se pripravlja in na kaj naj bodo pozorni. Damo tudi neka navodila. In jaz sem tokrat prepričan, da je naš narod, naši prebivalci ta navodila vzel zelo resno in so se tudi temu primerno obnašali. In to je sigurno rezultat, ki je pripeljal do tega, da smo imeli, kot sem prej rekel, relativno malo smrtnih žrtev. Seveda želja je vedno nič, ampak kljub temu zelo velik uspeh tudi naših ljudi in tudi vseh nas, ki na tem področju delamo.

Voditeljica: Če se vrneva na lanski avgust. Kdaj točno ste se zavedali, da bo tako hudo? Kdaj ste se odločili, da razglasite državni načrt? Ali so vas napotili na to, kot ste že omenili, na Arsu, kaj je tisto, kar je prevladalo?

Šestan: Arso je napovedal, to že mislim, da je bilo 30. julija ali pa 1. avgusta, 31. julija ali 1. avgusta. Takrat smo imeli že prvo tiskovko na Arsu. Seveda smo vsi pričakovali tak pomemben dogodek. Seveda pa ni nobeden računal na tako hude posledice. Tako da vse tiste aktivnosti, ki smo jih peljali do tega dogodka, so bile usmerjene v to, da bo treba biti zelo pozoren. In tudi ljudi smo pripravili na to. Sam sem pa načrt aktiviral takoj, ko se je dogodek zgodil. Mislim, da je bila to četrta ura, peta ura zjutraj, 4. avgusta. Še prej, ko sem od doma šel v službo, tako da so bili obveščeni vsi, ki so deležniki tega načrta iz centra za obveščanje že takoj in seveda reševalne akcije so stekle, pa še praktično lokalno tudi prej, tako da ta postopek je utečen. Seveda, pri državnem načrtu se pojavijo neke druge, bom rekel, zakonitosti. Takrat je država tista, ki pokriva vse stroške in takrat lahko tudi pomagamo iz drugih, neprizadetih območij, na prizadeta območja in seveda te neposredne stroške pokrije potem država tem predvsem prostovoljcem, ki so seveda, govorim struktur civilne zaščite oziroma zaščite in reševanja. Ne mislim tukaj na vse ostale prostovoljce, ki se potem vključijo noter. Tako da je to pomemben akt, ta razglasitev državnega načrta, ki pomaga, da se stvari hitrejše in boljše odvijajo.

Voditeljica: Torej, 4. avgusta ste tudi sklicali štab. To vemo mi, ki smo zraven, kaj to pomeni, ampak za tiste, ki nas poslušajo ali za gledajo, nimajo pojma, kako to poteka. Kaj to pomeni, sklicati štab, kdo daje povelje, kako sploh odreagirati v takšni katastrofi, za katero, roko na srce, nihče ni vedel, kakšna bo. Ker tisti dan smo vsi spremljali, kako visoko so narasle vode.

Šestan: Ja, res je, tukaj glavna težava seveda niso samo narasle vode, ampak glavno težavo so povzročili hudourniki tukaj, v tem primeru, zato ker so bile te ogromne količine vode v gozdnatih predelih, ki se pa seveda stekajo v vodotoke. Sklic štaba, ponavadi jaz temu rečem v operativni sestavi, ker se mi zdi neracionalno, da bi ob dogodku, kot je recimo poplava, sklical celoten štab, ki šteje okrog 20 ljudi. Zakaj bi jaz tam imel nekoga iz jedrske varnosti, če ga ne potrebujem in obremenjujem? In zato seveda skličem ponavadi štab v operativni sestavi, kjer so vsi tisti, ki presojam, da mi bodo lahko pri tem pomagali. Od UKOM-a, kjer zdaj sediva, pa do zdravja, do Slovenske vojske, do gasilcev, do ne vem še, koga. Vsi tisti, ki so seveda po načrtu prvi tisti posredovalci in potem seveda glede na informacije, ki jih dobimo s terena, in glede na že morebitna zaprosila občin ali pa regij, potem seveda odreagiramo čim hitreje, da lahko pomagamo tudi s tistimi resursi, ki jih imamo na razpolago na državni ravni, pa tudi z mednarodno pomočjo.

Voditeljica: Tudi regijsko so bili organizirani štabi. Vi ste jim izdajali, kako se temu reče, ukaze?

Šestan: No, jaz nerad rečem ukaze, ampak to so ukrepi, praktično. Regijski načrt se aktivira avtomatično, če je aktiviran državni načrt in občinski načrt, tam seveda, kjer so prizadete občine. Če pa ni aktiviran državni načrt, se pa lahko aktivirajo regijski tudi v posameznih regijah brez državnega načrta. Ampak z aktiviranjem državnega načrta se avtomatično aktivirajo vsi načrti. Tako da je sistem potem v celoti dvignjen na stopnjo odzivnosti, razen tistih lokalnih območij, kjer to ni potrebno oz. ni potrebe. Tista pa lahko seveda potem pomagajo, kot sem že prej rekel, na druge načine.

Voditeljica: Jaz se spomnim, kaj vse je bilo v bistvu v igri takrat, avtocesta zaprta. Kam zdaj s tistimi ljudmi, ki so ostali na avtocesti? Turistična naselja oziroma kampi, kjer so bili tujci. Kako ste vse to obvladovali?

Šestan: No, tukaj je velika pomoč ali pa velik plus vsega skupaj je to, da imamo mi to tudi regijsko organizirano v 13 regijah. En hendikep, ki ga vsi skupaj imajo, imamo po moji oceni veliko število občin, ker zelo veliko ali pa preveč občin je takšnih, ki seveda niso sposobne obvladovati takšnega dogodka v svojem okolju. In seveda tam nastanejo potem težave. Ampak imamo pa veliko občin, ki to obvladujejo in tudi to, kar ste omenili, avtocesta, kampi, vse te stvari so bile že par dni, kot sem prej omenil, 31. oziroma 1. avgusta, najavljene.

Voditeljica: Pa saj niso poslušali. Se spomnim, da ste imeli ostro izjavo.

Šestan: Tako, to je malo žalostno, da upravljavci ali pa lastniki kampov so čakali do zadnjega trenutka. In potem smo imeli seveda veliko težav tisti prvi dan. Vsi se bomo spomnili izjemne akcije Slovenske policije in Slovenske vojske s šestimi helikopterji, reševanja iz raznoraznih objektov, od dreves do streh do ne vem česa. Tega bi bilo bistveno manj, če bi tisti, ki so bila namenjena vsa ta opozorila, prej sem pohvalil prebivalce. Morda pa je treba pograjati kakšne upravljavce ali pa lastnike, če bi se pravočasno odzvali. Seveda pa imajo tudi oni kakšen izgovor. Nihče ni pričakoval resnično takega učinka oziroma takih škodnih in drugih potencialov, kot so se zgodili takrat.

Voditeljica: To so bile, rečemo 500-letne vode, mi smo imeli pa vse pripravljeno za stoletne vode.

Šestan: Recimo. To so zdaj že ena taka pojmovanja, ki so malo že zastarela, ker težko je razumeti običajnim ljudem, da so stoletne vode vsako drugo leto. Tako da bomo verjetno morali vsi skupaj, stroka predvsem razmišljati, kako to v prihodnje poimenovati, da bo malo bolj razumljivo. Se pa bojim, da bo teh dogodkov vedno več ali pa podobnih. Upam pa, da tako hudega ne bo še dolgo.

Voditeljica: Spomnim se recimo kritičnega trenutka, odrezane vasi, odrezana Črna na Koroškem in potem veselje, ko se je vojski uspelo prebiti do prebivalcev. Niso delovale telefonske linije. Ste vi mirno spali? Ste sploh kaj spali?

Šestan: Nekaj malega sem spal. Seveda je treba priznat. Brez spanja ne gre, ampak to par ur na dan, recimo. Je pa res, da odrezanih naselij je bilo veliko. Seveda so bile od primera do primera stvari različne. Brez povezav pa seveda je ostalo predvsem zaradi spremljanja teh padavin tudi z močnim vetrom, ki je ruval drevesa, ki je metal dol električno napeljavo in podobne stvari, tako da so bile različne aktivnosti. Črno ste omenili, bilo je še veliko drugih, ampak nekatere so bile bolj potencirane, kot je bila Črna, recimo. Pa ni nič narobe. Tako da jaz verjamem, da smo takrat vsi skupaj naredili veliko delo, da smo te stvari čim prej postavili v situacijo, da so vsaj dobili informacije, da so vedeli točno, kaj se dogaja, da so dobili vse tiste najnujnejše stvari, ki so jih potrebovali. Tako da jaz ocenjujem, da je delovalo vse skupaj dobro. In tudi ko smo poročilo poslali na vlado, se je vlada seznanila z njim in tudi seveda smo dobili vse pohvale. Tudi prej, takoj po ujmi, pa ne samo s strani vlade, ampak tudi s strani drugih držav, s strani medijev, s strani ljudi na koncu koncev. Tako da jaz verjamem, da sistem deluje dobro, seveda pa se zmeraj najde še kaj bi se dalo drugače, kaj bi se dalo lepše, kaj bi se dalo z manj stroškov in podobne stvari. Ampak smo bili pripravljeni.

Voditeljica: Na take reči se v civilni zaščiti pripravljate z raznimi vajami.

Šestan: Ja, to je res. Načrte, ki jih imamo za nesreče, ki jih imamo in jih obvladujemo in se pripravljamo tudi z vajami, tudi z drugimi stvarmi, tako teoretičnimi kot praktičnimi, in pa s katero imamo tudi nekaj izkušenj. Na žalost s poplavami imamo že veliko izkušenj. Res je pa, da ta poplava ali pa ta dogodek, ki je bil zdaj, ni bil prvi. To moramo vedeti. Podoben dogodek je bil v bolj omejenem obsegu, Železniki in Gorenja vas-Poljane, 2007 in 2014. To so bile neke ekstremne poplave. Ker pri klasičnih poplavah imamo veliko stvari, ki jih lahko naredimo predčasno, ali pa bom rekel v tistem času, ki ga imamo na razpolago, medtem ko tukaj na razpolago skoraj ni nobenega časa. Tukaj so minute, v minuti pa vemo, da ne moreš na terenu skoraj nič narediti. Lahko se umakneš in ljudje so se umaknili. In so, bom rekel, zavarovali svoja življenja. Vse drugo je pa težko.

Voditeljica: Če me spomin ne vara, smo imeli zelo dolgo za ta primer poplav aktiviran državni načrt. Rekordno dolgo?

Šestan: Za poplave rekordno dolgo. Ja, bil je aktiviran od 4., če se ne motim, do 30., to pomeni 26 dni. Tako dolgo za poplave nismo še nikoli imeli, imeli smo ga pa aktiviranega takrat za žled. Sicer drug načrt, ker za žled ga nismo imeli, pa za migracije tudi določene dele drugih načrtov. Ker migracije itak niso naravna nesreča, ampak smo uporabljali ukrepe iz ostalih načrtov, kar nam seveda tudi zakonodaja omogoča.

Voditeljica: Že takrat, takoj na začetku, ko so bile znane razsežnosti poplav, ste predsedniku vlade rekli, da bi trajala obnova tega 10 let. Kako ste to izračunali?

Šestan: No, seveda nisem šel računat, ker to je nemogoče izračunati, ampak na osnovi izkušenj, predvsem izkušnje iz potresa v Bovcu 2004, kjer obnova še danes ni popolnoma zaključena, se mi je zdelo, bom rekel primerno obdobje, ki sem ga kar tako med pogovorom rekel, 10 let. Upam, da temu ne bo tako, da se bo čim prej to zaključilo. Ker treba je vedeti, da je tukaj ogromno postopkov in pa tudi ogromno dela, za katerega je treba imeti veliko resursov, tako tehničnih, strokovnih kot tudi fizičnih za izvajanje vsega tega. In zato sem jaz eno tako oceno dal, kar tako čez palec, do 10. Če bo manj in če bo veliko manj, bom jaz prvi, ki bom zelo zadovoljen. Pa verjetno vsi, tudi ostali prebivalci, ki so prizadeti, verjetno najbolj.

Voditeljica: Povsem razumljivo je, da tisti, ki so bili prizadeti, pričakujejo rešitve čim prej, takoj. Zdaj se je malce zavleklo, ker so strokovnjaki to, kar sva že prej govorila, naredili načrte za 500-letne vode. Verjetno je to razumljivo, da smo morali vse to spremeniti in da je to podaljšalo postopek.

Šestan: Absolutno. Seveda, jaz mislim, da ljudje to tudi razumejo. Seveda je treba njih tudi razumeti, da nimajo svojih domov, da so ostali brez njih, da so utrpeli škodo. Nekateri zelo veliko, nekateri malo manjšo. Jaz mislim, da z ustrezno komunikacijo je treba tudi ljudem počasi povedati, kaj, kako. In pa seveda načrt za naprej. Jaz mislim, da ljudje, če bodo videli, da bodo imeli nekaj v rokah, kar bo oprijemljivo, da bodo potem tudi s tem zadovoljni in bodo lažje počakali tisto končno rešitev. Tako da ja, seveda je tukaj težav veliko. Jaz se tega zavedam, tudi ker iz nekih izkušenj, ki jih imamo, od samih postopkov do vsega skupaj, je stvar zelo zapletena. Tukaj pa seveda toliko bolj, ker kot ste rekli sami, so računali to še na 500-letne vode, kar je prav, ker če se nam bo drugič zgodilo nekaj podobnega, bo takoj kriva sanacija. In jaz upam in verjamem, da bo ta sanacija, ko bo končana, pripomogla k temu, da takšnih ali pa niti podobnih posledic po takih ujmah ne bomo imeli nikoli več.

Voditeljica: Bova še ostala malce pri ljudeh, tudi pri ljudeh, ki so pomagali. Izkazali smo veliko solidarnost in tega Slovencem nikoli ne zmanjka. Celo toliko, da smo morali zaustavljati vse tiste, ki so se želeli v posebno aplikacijo prijaviti, da bi želeli pomagati. Takrat je verjetno tem, ki so bili prizadeti, ta pomoč veliko pomenila. Vem, da smo se pogovarjali s psihologinjo, ki je rekla, da jim samo kava pa pogovor že dovolj pomeni, da se jih pomiri v tistih prvih trenutkih. Kako ste vi videli ta množičen odziv Slovencev in Slovenk?

Šestan: Ta množičen odziv, če se spomnimo tudi leta nazaj pri teh velikih stvareh, tudi pri manjših, ampak pri teh velikih, od žleda, požara na Krasu in podobnih stvari. Seveda je razumljiv in jaz mislim, da je to v našem narodu. Je pa, kot ste sami rekli, to obremenitev predvsem za nas, ki ta dela na lokacijah vodimo. Ker če prostovoljca vzamemo v svoje okrilje, potem smo za njega odgovorni. In seveda je prevelika masa prostovoljcev, ki večinoma ali pa načeloma niso usposobljeni za vsako delo, seveda za nekatera dela lahko uporabimo, je potem odgovornost še večja na nas, ki to vodimo. Ker če se temu prostovoljcu kaj zgodi, če se poškoduje, bog ne daj, da še umre, potem je to naša odgovornost. In seveda, tega si mi ne smemo privoščiti, zato smo tudi zelo apelirali in poudarjali, naj se vsi prijavljajo preko aplikacije, kot ste rekli. Ker veliko prostovoljcev je šlo direktno brez nič ali pa so se načeloma dogovorili z občino. Občine pa, kot sem prej rekel, nekatere v taki situaciji ne obvladujejo oziroma ne morejo obvladovati stvari in je prišlo na terenu do velikega števila prostovoljcev, kar pa ne pomeni nič dobrega. Tako da v tem smislu smo bili mi prisiljeni seveda tisti vikend, če se spomnimo, ko je bil tudi tisti solidarnostni ponedeljek, to maso nekako omejiti, da smo lahko ustrezno razporejali in dodeljevali delo tem prostovoljcem. To nam je tudi uspelo po idejah, ki smo jih dobili na štabu in pa potem po teh izvajanjih, ki jih je policija na kontrolnih točkah izvajala in preusmerjala te ljudi na take lokacije, kjer je bilo pa teh prostovoljcev bistveno manj.

Voditeljica: Jaz se spomnim, da so bile tudi takrat velike debate o tem, da ni dobro, da kar vse donirajo, kar imajo doma, da je treba izbirati, kaj potrebujemo. Zato je bilo tudi potem v tej aplikaciji na voljo, da izbereš tisto, kar bi dal. In takrat so bile primerjave s potresom na Hrvaškem v Petrinji, kjer so menda tone nekega neuporabnega materiala celo zažigali, če sem si prav zapomnila. Tudi tukaj vam je uspelo, da ste omejili, da ni bilo kar vsepovprek donirano, kar se morda ni potrebovalo tisti trenutek.

Šestan: Nekaj stvari je bilo, to je treba priznati, takih, ki so bile neuporabne, ampak pač to je treba vzeti v zakup. Večina stvari, ki smo jih dobili kot donacije oziroma kot pomoč in so šle skozi aplikacijo ravno zato, kot ste rekli, ker smo noter naredili šifrant teh stvari, so bile potem seveda ustrezno razdeljene, ustrezno uporabljene, tako da se niso metale na kup, kar je nesmisel, ampak da so bile resnično uporabljene v velikem obsegu. Tako da jaz še enkrat tudi tukaj, tudi če je skoraj leto po poplavah, še enkrat hvala vsem tistim, ki so se izkazali s tem, da so pomagali na kateri koli način, ali s fizično pomočjo ali s sredstvi, finančnimi ali pa z materialnimi.

Voditeljica: Ste na koncu naredili kakšno evalvacijo, Kaj je šlo v redu, kaj ne, kaj izboljšati?

Šestan: Sem omenil že prej poročilo na vlado. V tem poročilu so zaključki. V tem poročilu so predlogi za izboljšave. V tem poročilu so tudi seveda nekatere negativne stvari, ki smo jih opazili in jih imeli. Tako da to poročilo je dobro, da si ogledajo vsi tisti, ki jih seveda stvari zanimajo in jaz upam, da bomo čim več tistih predlogov, ki so zapisani na koncu kot izboljšave, tudi izvedli v naslednjem obdobju, tako da bomo za drugi primer še bolj, bom rekel, ali pa ustrezneje pripravljeni.

Voditeljica: Upam, da bo tega čim manj.

Šestan: Tudi jaz.

Voditeljica: Mineva 12 let, odkar ste bili imenovani za poveljnika civilne zaščite, in v tem obdobju je bil 16-krat aktiviran državni načrt. Se pravi, ni bil aktiviran kar tako, vi ste ga aktivirali. Kdaj je bilo najtežje? Katera preizkušnja?

Šestan: No, tako bom rekel. Seveda, teh 12 let je kar veliko stvari bilo takih velikih. Morda ne bo škodilo, da jih samo par navedem, od tiste Drave v letu 2012, če se spomnite, ko smo rekli, da so nam Avstrijci zakuhali tisto Dravo, pa do 2014 žled, pa do 2015, 2016 migracije, na koncu pa covid 2020, 2021. 2019 je začel. No, jaz bom tako ocenil in to sem že večkrat ocenil, da največji stres ali pa bom rekel največja težava je bil seveda v tej državi covid. In to zato, ker nanj enostavno nihče ni bil pripravljen niti najmanj. Tako da tudi dela, ki smo jih mi kot civilna zaščita ali pa kot sistem zaščite in reševanja izvajali, smo jih izvajali na lastno pobudo. Vlada nam je s sklepom, katerega avtor sem bil jaz zraven še dveh pravnikov, naložila, ker jaz sem sam takrat ocenil in vsi so mi potem pritrdili, da nihče drug niti ni sposoben tega izvajati. Mislim tukaj na skladiščenje, razdeljevanje zaščitnih sredstev, na konec koncev tudi cepiv in vseh podobnih stvari. Tako da tukaj, čeprav nismo imeli načrta, ker ste omenili šestnajstkrat aktiviran načrt, ampak v takih situacijah, ko nimamo načrta direktnega, tukaj smo ga imeli za epidemijo, ampak tukaj smo imeli pa še eno za nas in pa zame osebno eno olajševalno okoliščino, ker je Zakon o nalezljivih boleznih to nalogo dodelil ministrstvu za zdravje, potem pa vladi, ker se je zakon popravil, tako da nismo teh aktivnosti mi vodili kot civilna zaščita, čeprav je epidemija po definiciji našega zakona druga nesreča. Tako da jaz mislim, da je bil ta, če smem temu reči, dogodek, čeprav ni bil dogodek, je bil ena velika kalvarija, najtežja za vse nas v tej državi, od vlade do tudi naših struktur. Tako da je pa tudi dejstvo, da smo izpeljali po moje zelo dobro, solidno in za bodoče, ko smo potem še v procesu samem te epidemije tudi državni načrt spremenili na tak način, da smo potem na koncu koncev po njem delovali in tudi daje podlago vsem resorjem, da imajo tudi trenutno, zdaj in v bodoče na zalogi določeno potrebno število teh zaščitnih sredstev. Jaz upam, da se kaj takega ne bo ponovilo, ampak če bi se slučajno kaj takega ponovilo, sem prepričan, da smo veliko bolj pripravljeni na ustreznejši odziv, kot je bil takrat. Ker zaščitnih sredstev, razen v bolnišnicah za normalno rabo, pa pri nas v državnih in blagovnih rezervah za sile za zaščito in reševanje in pomoč nismo imeli nikjer.

Voditeljica: Kako delujete z ljudmi? Vi ste poveljnik. Že samo ime, poveljujete, veliko pove. Upravljate z več ljudmi. Kakšna je vaša vloga? Verjetno brez predanih sodelavcev ali pa takšnih, ki vam zaupajo, ne bi mogli svojega dela tako dobro opravljati.

Šestan: Absolutno. Jaz zmeraj rečem, da jaz sem pač eden. Sem poveljnik že 12 let, kot ste prej rekli. Včeraj je bilo v uradnem listu pred 12 leti to objavljeno. Drugače pa brez sodelavcev in brez, ne samo sodelavcev, brez vseh teh struktur, ki jih imamo v zaščiti in reševanju, v katerih sodeluje več kot 60 000, predvsem prostovoljcev. Ker poklicnih struktur nas je zelo malo. V poklicne strukture sodi tam 1000 gasilcev, recimo, 1800 reševalcev NMP. Pa nekaj nas je zaposlenih na zaščiti in reševanju v tej državi, pa nas ni 500 vseh skupaj. Tako da tukaj je bistven pomen je ta prostovoljski del na čelu z gasilci, ki so najbolj masovni, pa tudi vsi ostali, ki imajo tudi pomembno vlogo. Imamo tudi nekaj dolžnostih sil, ki pa jih je treba reorganizirati. In to je v procesu. Jaz ocenjujem, da malo predolgo traja, ampak upam, da bomo to počasi zaključili. Tako da v tem smislu je seveda ta razdelitev nalog in pa poznavanje, kaj je čigava naloga in komu je kdo odgovoren, je zelo pomembno. In to se naučimo, če ne drugače, pri procesu načrtovanja. Ne pri načrtu kot papirju, ampak pri procesu, ki traja seveda lahko različno, pri državnih načrtih je malo daljši, pri nižjih načrtih je malo krajši, ampak pri procesu se vsi deležniki spoznajo, točno vejo, kakšni so odnosi med njimi, kakšni so postopki in podobne stvari. In to je zelo pomembno. Tudi skozi proces usposabljanja vse to učimo. Tudi sam osebno čim večkrat grem na predavanja, predavam našim pripadnikom štabov, od občinskih do regijskih štabov, tako da se jih čim bolj enoznačno usposobi, da so te relacije in komunikacije čim enostavnejše in hitrejše in razumljive.

Voditeljica: Vzgajate torej naslednike in se ni bati za naš sistem civilne zaščite?

Šestan: Če bomo to obdržali, kot imamo, pa to prostovoljstvo na tem nivoju, potem 100 let najmanj nimamo nobenih težav.

Voditeljica: Omenila sem zaupanje tudi zato, ker pa ste, ko se zgodijo nesreče, recimo temu medijska zvezda. Takrat ne samo, da vam zaupajo sodelavci, ampak mora tudi javnost, da vam verjamejo. Kako se počutite v tej vlogi, ko morate kot komunikator sporočiti javnosti, recimo temu ne najboljše novice?

Šestan: Včasih je seveda težko, ampak meni ta komunikacija ni težka. Jaz vem, da s to komunikacijo veliko pripomorem, da bodo ljudje mirnejši, da se bodo ljudje pravilno odzvali, da bodo tudi naši ljudje, tisti, ki so v so v sistemu, razumeli, za kaj gre. In jaz tukaj ne čutim nobenega pritiska in to je moja dolžnost, ki jo jemljem kot samoumevno. In če mi to uspeva, kot ste rekli, potem je to še toliko boljše.

Voditeljica: Vam uspeva. Rezultat je recimo skoraj nič smrtnih žrtev pri poplavah, letos še nagrada, priznanje Primus za vaše komuniciranje. Tako da jaz mislim, da vam uspeva. Poleg tistih dveh nagrad, ki sem jih že na začetku omenila.

Šestan: Vse te nagrade so nagrade meni osebno, ampak jaz mislim, da za temi nagradami, kot sem prej rekel, stoji ta masa ljudi, 60 000 ljudi, ki vsak prinese nekaj, en kamenček v mozaik. Tako da jaz, tudi njim iskrena hvala.

Voditeljica: Nekaj sva že omenila o sistemu civilne zaščite v Sloveniji. Res je dober. Sploh zdaj, recimo, ko smo videli, meni so navadni ljudje, ki sem se srečevala z njimi, ne ti iz poklicnih sfer, pripovedovali, da niso mogli verjeti, kako smo uspeli umakniti v hotele množice turistov in tistih, ki so čakali na avtocesti, jim dostaviti hrano nemudoma. Res deluje. Ampak ali so morda potrebne še kakšne izboljšave?

Šestan: No, za izboljšave je zmeraj prostor, tako da kot sem prej rekel, veliko občin je takšnih, občina seveda je temelj tega sistema in veliko občin je organiziranih v nulo, bom tako rekel, in so sposobne marsikaj narediti tudi v tem primeru. To je bila občina Zagorje, če se ne motim. Trbovlje, pardon, Trbovlje, ko so nastanili turiste iz avtoceste. Vrhunsko, vrhunsko, resnično vrhunsko. Seveda tega vsaka občina ne bi zmogla. Naslednji dan smo imeli vsi zajtrk na mizi, vse. Absolutno. Urejeno v nulo vse in treba je pohvaliti tudi Rečico ob Savinji pa tudi … ne vem, marsikatero drugo občino. Kljub vsem tistim težavam, ki so jih imeli, smo v Rečici recimo imeli štab oz. bazo za vse te mednarodne sile, naredili tam kamp v tisti osnovni šoli. Vse je funkcioniralo v nulo, tako da v tem smislu, seveda so ti postopki definirani do neke mere, do neke mere je improvizacija, ampak pri tolikšnem številu ljudi, ki radi pomagajo in radi to počnejo in nekateri so strokovnjaki, ki jih je treba tudi izkoristiti. In jaz mislim, da jih izkoristimo v takem primeru, da se te stvari resnično naredijo na enem solidnem nivoju.

Voditeljica: Kaj je vzrok tega? Sistematično delo zadnjih let?

Šestan: Ne gre samo za zadnja leta. Jaz mislim, da je ta sistem postavljen na zelo dobrih temeljih oziroma je zelo dobro postavljen. Ta sistem se je postavil leta 1994 z Zakonom o varstvu pred naravnimi in drugimi nesrečami in ločitvijo obrambe in zaščite. Zakon o obrambi in zaščiti je bil predhodnik tega. Potem sta pa nastala ta zakon, ki sem ga jaz omenil, pa Zakon o obrambi. Prej je bila civilna zaščita, predvsem pozicionirana za vojno stanje. Potem so pa moji, naši predhodniki ugotovili, da naravne nesreče pa niso samo vojno stanje, ampak je še kaj drugega. In te nesreče so se pojavljale in so ta sistem, bom rekel, prenovili. Šli so pogledat kar nekaj evropskih držav, kjer imajo to dobro urejeno. Zdaj pa mislim, da smo večino teh držav prehiteli, kar se tiče urejenosti, kar se tiče samega funkcioniranja. Da ne govorim pa o tem, kako je sistem strukturiran. Kot sem prej omenil, prostovoljci, ki so jedro tega sistema, tega v Evropi ni in jaz mislim, da smo lahko ponosni na to. In kot sem prej omenil, če bomo to držali tako kot držimo zdaj, da bo to še najmanj 100 in več let lahko trajalo.

Voditeljica: Zahvala tudi prostovoljcem.

Šestan: Absolutno.

Voditeljica: Tole bi še želela vprašati. To je bila naravna katastrofa. Sklepamo, da zaradi globalnih sprememb. Veliko pa bi tudi bilo slabega narejenega, sva se prej pogovarjala, če bi prišlo do potresa. Tudi nanj se veliko pripravljate, ste dejali.

Šestan: Ja. Na potres je na žalost edina, kako bi temu rekel, funkcionalna priprava ali pa funkcionalni ukrep so potresno odporni objekti. To pa na žalost v tej državi je veliko objektov, ki to niso in to so velika grožnja za poškodbe, velika grožnja tudi za smrtne žrtve. In jaz upam, da se bo bomo vsi skupaj čim prej zavedli, da je treba te objekte ali sanirati ali pa enostavno porušiti in zgraditi na novo. Ker ko smo začeli s to raziskovalno nalogo, o kateri sva se tudi prej pogovarjala, ki smo jo naredili, začeli na pobudo Mestne občine Ljubljana oziroma nekih njihovih že začetkov, je stroka ugotovila, kakšno je stanje posameznih objektov v posameznih občinah, ki so želele sodelovati v tem procesu. In to ni razveseljujoče, zato je seveda tukaj moje upanje, pa ne samo moje, da se bomo vsaj enkrat začeli tudi o tem pogovarjati in iskati rešitve.

Voditeljica: Imamo mogoče lokacije po Sloveniji, ki so najbolj obremenjene?

Šestan: Najbolj kritična je absolutno Ljubljana kot glavno mesto, kot najbolj gosto poseljeno območje. In na žalost je tukaj identificiranih oz. definiranih kar nekaj večstanovanjskih objektov, ki so zelo kritične gradnje. Tako da tukaj absolutno bo treba razmišljati o tem in to več ni nobena tajna. Včasih je bila to tajna. Seveda zdaj ni. Imamo pa tudi eno aplikacijo, ki je bila rezultat te raziskovalne naloge, ki se je ponavljala, mislim, da štirikrat, kar pomeni, da smo naredili kar veliko teh referenčnih objektov, da je ta aplikacija, ki je dostopna tudi na gov.si. Mogoče vpišejo noter tisti, ki jim bo to zanimivo, da noter osnovne podatke, seveda, če jih pozna, o stavbi, v kateri prebiva, in bo dobil eno tako pavšalno oceno, kako bo ta stavba reagirala na potres različne stopnje, ki jo bo tam notri lahko izbral. Treba je povedati, morda za tiste, ki ne poznajo, mi imamo v Sloveniji od šeste do osme stopnje potres po evropski lestvici. Ta osma stopnja je veliko območje od Bovca oz. od Posočja preko Ljubljane do Posavja. Na njem prebiva čez milijon prebivalcev. In to ni zanemarljiv podatek. Na tem območju je celotna Ljubljana, pa še nekatera druga velika mesta. Tako da tukaj noter bo dobil osnoven podatek, kot sem prej rekel, njegove stavbe, tudi če je blok, če pozna seveda, kako je grajen in kdaj. In bo dobil obarvanega, pomeni rdečega, oranžnega, rumenega, kar pa seveda pomeni hude poškodbe. Tam je že tolmačenje noter, tako da ena taka zanimiva stvar. Seveda je pa to, kot sem rekel, taka ocena čez palec. To pa stroka naredi seveda z nekim stroškom, ki ga posameznik mora, bi moral plačati za njegov objekt, to je ZAG pa ZRMK. To so strokovnjaki, ki se s tem ukvarjajo in delajo te ocene.

Voditeljica: Upajva, da do potresa ne pride.

Šestan: Enkrat bo prišlo. To je dejstvo.

Voditeljica: Upajmo, da čim pozneje, da se prilagodimo. Za konec. Kako spremlja vaše delo, ki je stresno, tega ne moreva zanikati, družina?

Šestan: Jaz sem že večkrat povedal, da imam vse razumevanje. No, zdaj, zadnje čase, seveda je tega malo manj, ker je teh obremenitev zmeraj več. Ampak dobro, nimam nobenih težav, resnično ne. Žena mi je celo, bom rekel, svetovalka. Dobro, otroci so odrasli, tako da niso s tem trenutno obremenjeni. Sta oba v Ljubljani, jaz se pa vozim vsak dan v Ilirsko Bistrico, ampak imam podporo, sem imel vsa leta, in tudi razumevanje. Tudi na dopustu jaz brez telefona nisem nikoli. Tako da moj dopust je pač tak, kot je. Smo se vsi na to navadili in delamo brez kakšnih posebnih stresov oziroma brez kakšnih posebnih problemov.

Voditeljica: Gospod Srečko, hvala za pogovor. Naj bo sreča na naši strani.

Šestan: Hvala za povabilo. Jaz tudi želim srečo vsem, ki prebivajo ali pa grejo skozi našo prelepo Slovenijo. In kot sva prej rekla, ta potres, ki je res grožnja, naj se pojavi čez tisočletja.

Voditeljica: Hvala lepa vam, da ste bili z nami. S tem smo končali deseto epizodo vladnega podkasta Govsi. Nasvidenje. 


[ENGLISH VERSION]  
Government Podcast GOVSI.

Host Petra Bezjak Cirman: Greetings, dear viewers and listeners. This is the tenth episode of the GOVSI Government Podcast prepared by the Government Communication Office. My name is Petra Bezjak Cirman and you can subscribe to our podcast on any platform. Our guest needs no special introduction as he is known throughout Slovenia. In 2020, during the Covid-19 pandemic, Val 202 declared him Name of the Year and following the floods last August he was one of Delo's candidates for Person of the Year. We have with us Srečko Šestan. Hello.

Hello.

Host: Srečko, you have a lucky name. Does it help in your profession?

I hope it doesn't, or rather it cannot help me, but my name does mean "lucky man." I found it hard to get used to it as a child. I somehow didn't understand it, "Srečko", others had other names. But when I went to university, I was surprised when there were seven Srečkos in my first year. I saw that the name was not as rare as it was where I was from.

Host: Were you given a nickname to differentiate you from the other seven?

We had nicknames at university, but I forgot them. We had nicknames. Perhaps not all of us, but some.

Host: I am asking you this because of last year's tragedy, the biggest floods in living memory in Slovenia. But we were also lucky as there were no casualties. Why was this the case?

I have to correct you, the floods did claim three victims from the Ministry of the Interior. I have not seen it proven that they are directly responsible, but nonetheless, the number is relatively low, especially when compared to the similar floods two years ago in Germany and Greece, where the tolls were much higher. I ascribe that to the fact that for about 15 years we have had the following arrangement. When ARSO issues a red alert, they call a press conference, which is attended by the Commander of Civil Protection or someone else, if necessary, and, of course, all others involved, people from the Water Agency, geologists ... At these conferences we notify the public through the media of what is being done, what they should look out for, and we issue instructions. I am certain that our citizens took those instructions very seriously and acted accordingly. That must be why we had such a relatively low death toll. Of course, you always want it to be zero, nonetheless, it was a great achievement for our people and those of us who work in this field.

Host: Going back to last August, when exactly did you realise it was going to be this bad? When did you decide to declare the National Plan? Were you perhaps directed to do so by ARSO?

ARSO had already predicted it on 31 July or 1 August, which is also when we had our first press conference at ARSO. We all expected, so to speak, such a significant event, but no one expected such dire consequences. All of our activities up until the event were aimed at careful preparations and preparing the people for it. I activated the plan immediately when the event happened, at 4 or 5 AM on 4 August, before I even left home for work, so everyone involved in the plan at the Notification Centre was immediately notified. Of course, local rescue operations started even earlier. So, this procedure has been established. There are some other legalities in the National Plan, all costs are covered by the state and we can bring aid to affected areas from other, unaffected areas. The direct costs are then covered by the state, mainly of the volunteers, by which I mean the structure of Civil Protection and Disaster Relief. I do not mean all the subsequent volunteers. Declaring the National Plan is a significant act, which helps move things along faster and better.

Host: On 4 August you also convened the command. Those of us involved know what that means, but our viewers probably have no idea. What does it mean to convene the command staff? Who gives orders? How do you react to such a catastrophe that, truth be told, no one knew what it would be like, as we were all still watching how high the waters would rise.

True. The main issue were not only the rising waters, the main issue in this case were the torrents, because there were massive amounts of water in forests, which flowed into the watercourses. I convene the command staff in "operational capacity", as I call it. With an event like a flood, I find it irrational to convene the entire command, which consists of about 20 people. Why would I call on someone from Nuclear Safety, if I don't need them? So, I convene the command staff in operational capacity, meaning all those that I think can help me. From UKOM, where we are right now, to healthcare, the army, firefighters and others. All of the first responders, according to the plan. Then, based on the information from the field and potential requests from municipalities or regions, we respond as quickly as possible in order to provide help with the resources available to us at the national level and with international aid.

Host: Commands were organised regionally as well. Did you issue them orders?

I do not like to call them orders. They are measures. Regional plans activate automatically with the national plan, as do municipal plans in affected municipalities. If the National Plan is not activated, regional plans can still be activated in individual regions, but activating the National Plan automatically activates all plans. The system is thus entirely raised to the response level, except in areas where that is not required. Those, as I said earlier, can then help in other ways.

Host: I remember everything that happened. The motorway was closed. What to do with the stranded people? Tourist camps with foreigners ... How did you handle all of that?

A major plus in all of this is that we have it all organised regionally as well, in 13 regions. I think that one disadvantage we have is the large number of municipalities. There are too many municipalities that cannot handle such an event in their areas and that is where problems arise. But many municipalities do handle them. You mentioned the motorway and camps. All of those things have already been announced on 1 August.

Host: But not everyone listened. I remember your scalding statement.

Yes. It is sad that some camp managers or owners waited until the very last moment. We had a lot of trouble on the first day. We can all remember the incredible actions of the police and army, using six helicopters to conduct rescue operations from various places, from trees to rooftops and all sorts. There would have been significantly less of that if they had responded on time. Earlier I commended the citizens, but now I should perhaps reprimand some managers and owners. Of course, they do have a little bit of an excuse, as truly no one expected that the impacts and damage would be as severe as they were.

Host: They were 500-year floods, while we were prepared for 100-year floods.

Sort of. These concepts are now slightly outdated as ordinary people find it hard to understand that 100-year floods now happen every other year. We will probably need to consider what to call this in the future to make it a little more understandable, but I fear that such events will only increase in number, but hopefully not this severe for a long time.

Host: One critical moment was Črna na Koroškem being cut off, and then joy when the army broke through to the inhabitants. Telephone lines didn't work. Were you able to get any sleep?

I slept for a couple of hours a day, you cannot do without sleep. But it is true that many settlements were cut off. The situation was different in each case. They were left with no connection mainly because the rain was accompanied by strong winds that uprooted trees and brought down power lines. There was various activity, in many places in addition to Črna. Some were affected even worse than Črna. I believe that we all made a big effort and acted as quickly as possible to provide information, so people could know exactly what was going on, and to provide them with essential items. I think that it all worked well and when we sent the report to the government we were commended. Earlier as well, just after the disaster. Not just by the government, but by other countries, the media and the people as well. So, I believe that the system works well, but you can always find something you could do differently, better, cheaper et cetera.

Host: But the Civil Protection was prepared due to various exercises.

Yes. We have plans for the disasters we deal with, we prepare for them with exercises and other things, theoretical and practical, and we have experience in dealing with them. Unfortunately, we have a lot of experience with floods, but it is true that this flood or this event that has taken place now was not the first one, there was a similar event more limited in scope in Železniki and Gorenja vas - Poljane in 2007 and 2014. This was extreme flooding, in a classic flood there are many things we can do ahead of time, or in the time that we have, whereas here there is hardly any time. It's a question of minutes, you can't do anything in a minute. You can retreat. People have retreated, they've protected their lives, but everything else is difficult.

Host: If I remember correctly, the national plan in case of flooding was in force for a very long time. A record long time?

A record long time for flooding, yes. It was in force from August 4 to 30, 26 days. It has never been in force that long for a flood. But it was in force for hail. Another plan, because there wasn't one for hail. And for migration certain parts of other plans were in force, because migration is not a natural disaster, but we used measures from other plans, which of course the legislation allows us to do.

Host: Right at the beginning, when the extent of the floods was known, you told the Prime Minister it would take ten years to rebuild. How did you calculate that?

It's impossible to calculate, but based on experience, especially the experience of the earthquake in Bovec in 2004, where the reconstruction is ongoing to this day, it seemed to me a reasonable period. I just said ten years during the conversation. I hope that will not be the case, that it will be completed as soon as possible. There are a lot of procedures, work and resources, both technical, professional and physical. I gave a rough estimate of ten years. If it is much less, I will be very happy, as will be the residents who've suffered the most.

Host: It is understandable that those who have been affected expect solutions as soon as possible, but this has been delayed because the experts, as we said earlier, have made plans for the 500-year flood. It's probably understandable that we have had to change this and that this has prolonged the process.

Yes, absolutely. I think people understand that. We also need to understand them, they've lost their homes, some have suffered major damage, some minor. I think we need to properly communicate to these people what the plan is for the future. I think that if people see something tangible, they will be satisfied with that and will be more willing to wait for the final solution. Of course, there are a lot of problems, I am aware of that. From some of the experiences that we have, everything from the procedures to everything else is very complicated. All the more so when they've planned for the 500-year flood. Which is only right, because if something similar happens again, it will immediately be the fault of the reconstruction. I hope and believe the reconstruction, when it is completed, will help to ensure that such storms never have such or similar consequences again.

Host: Let's stay with the people, including those who have helped. We've shown a lot of solidarity, Slovenians never run out of it. So much so that we had to stop all those who wanted to register on a special app to help. The help probably meant a lot to those who were affected. We spoke to a psychologist who said that just a coffee or a conversation was enough to reassure them in those first moments. What is your view of this massive response from Slovenians?

If we remember years ago, when it came to major things, to minor as well, but to major things, from hail, the Karst fire and things like that, the response is understandable. I think it's a part of our nation. But as you said, it is a burden, especially for those of us leading the work on the ground, because if we take volunteers under our wing, then we are responsible for them. There is an overwhelming mass of volunteers who are not qualified, in most cases or in principle, for every job. We can use them for some jobs, so our responsibility is even greater, because if something happens to volunteers, if they get injured, if God forbid, they die, it's our responsibility. We can't afford that, and that is why we have also made a lot of appeals and stressed that everyone should apply through the app, because many volunteers have gone straight in without anything, or they've made arrangements with the municipality. Some municipalities don't or can't manage things in that situation and there was a large number of volunteers on the ground, which doesn't bode well. In that sense we were forced, if we remember the Solidarity Monday, to limit that mass somehow, so that we could properly schedule and assign work to these volunteers. We managed to do that in line with the ideas from the headquarters. The police had set up checkpoints and redirected people to the locations where there were significantly fewer volunteers.

Host: I remember there was a big debate at the time about not donating everything that we have at home, that we need to see what people need, this could also be done through the app. There were comparisons with the earthquake in Croatia where they were supposedly burning tons of useless material. You managed to limit that, so that people weren't donating things that might not have been needed at the time.

There were a few things that were useless, but that is to be expected. Most of donations or aid which went through the app, precisely because, as you said, we made a list of things, were then properly distributed, properly used, so that they were not thrown away, which is nonsense. Most of the things were used. Even if it is almost a year after the floods, I would like to again thank all those who have helped in any way, physically or with financial or material resources.

Host: Have you made any evaluation at the end, what went well, what did not go well? 

I mentioned the report for the Government. In this report, there are conclusions, suggestions for improvement, some of the negative things that we have noticed. All those who are interested should look at this report. I hope that many of the proposals that are written at the end as improvements will be implemented. So that we will be more adequately prepared for the future.

Host: I hope there'll be no need. It's been 12 years since you were appointed as the Civil Protection Commander. During that period the national plan has been activated sixteen times. It has not been activated by itself, you've activated it. Which of those times was the most difficult?

There have been many major things during these 12 years, maybe I should name a couple. From the Drava River in 2012, which we blamed on the Austrians, to hail in 2014, migration in 2015, 2016, and finally, the Covid crisis in 2019, 2020 and 2021. I have said this many times, the biggest stress or the biggest problem was, of course, Covid. Because nobody was prepared for it, not even in the slightest, so even the work that we were doing as Civil Protection or as a protection and rescue system, we carried out on our own initiative. The Government adopted a decision, written by me and two lawyers. Everybody agreed that nobody else could carry it out. I'm talking about storing and distributing protective equipment, vaccines and that sort of thing. Even though we did not have a plan, you mentioned 16 plans were activated, but in situations like this where we do not have a direct plan ... We had a plan for an epidemic, there was a mitigating circumstance for us and me personally, because the Communicable Diseases Act assigned this task to the Ministry of Health, and then the Government, when it was amended, so these activities were not led by the Civil Protection. Even though an epidemic is defined among other disasters. I think that this event, although it was not an event, it was a major disaster, the most difficult for all of us, from the Government to our structures as well. But I think we dealt with it very well, we changed the national plan in the process of this epidemic, so that we could act in accordance with it. It provides the basis for all the ministries to have a certain number of protective equipment in stock. I hope that something like this will not happen again, but if by any chance it does, I am sure that we are much more prepared for a more adequate response than we've shown at the time. Apart from in hospitals for normal use, we had no protective equipment in the national and commodity reserves for the protection, rescue and relief forces.

Host: How do you work with people? You are a commander, you command, you work with several people, what is your role? Without dedicated colleagues or those who trust you, you wouldn't be able to do your job so well.

Absolutely, I am just one. I am a commanding officer for 12 years. As you've said, it was published 12 years ago in the Official Journal. But there are also co-workers and all the structure that we have in the Civil Protection, where more than 60,000 mainly volunteers work. Because there are just a few professionals. Among professionals, there are 1,000 firefighters, 1,800 paramedics and a few of us, not even 500, employed in the Civil Protection. Volunteers are the key here, especially firefighters. All the others have an important role as well. We also have a few forces that we have to reorganize, which we are doing now. I think it takes a bit too long, but I hope we will finish it now. In this sense, the distribution of tasks and knowing, what an individual has to do and who is responsible, is very important. We learn this in the process of planning. Not on paper, but in the process, which can take time. National plans take longer, others a bit less. But in the process, all participants get to know each other. They get to know their relations, the procedures and similar. This is very important and we learn this through training. I listen to the lectures and give lectures to our staff members, from municipal to regional headquarters, so they are explicitly trained and communication as simple as can be, quick and clear.

Host: You are training successors and we shouldn't be afraid for the system.

If we maintain what we have and volunteers on this level, we won't have any problems for at least 100 years.

Host: I mentioned trust. When accidents happen, you become a media star, if we can say so. The public has to trust you and believe you. How do you feel in this role, when you have to be a communicator and you have to announce the bad news.

Sometimes it's hard, but it's not difficult for me, because I know that I help a lot that people are calmer and that they react in a right way and that people in the system will understand the issues. I don't feel the pressure here. I take this responsibility for granted. If I'm successful at this, even better.

Host: You were successful. The result is almost none fatalities in floods. This year you were awarded for your communication. I believe, you are successful. In addition to the awards I have mentioned.

All these awards are for me, but also for numerous people, more than 60,000 people, who all contribute something. I am very grateful to them as well.

Host: We talked about the system of Civil Protection in Slovenia. It's very good, especially now, as we saw ... I've heard this from ordinary people, not professionals. They couldn't believe, how we managed to move multitude of tourists who were waiting on a highway and to deliver food immediately. It really works. But would it be good to improve something?

It can always be better. As I've said, a lot of municipalities are such that they have top notch organization. They can do a lot. In this case, it was a municipality Zagorje, no, Trbovlje. They have accommodated the tourist from the highway. It was world-class. Every municipality couldn't do this.

Host: And not only that. The next day everybody got breakfast.

Yes, of course. Everything was done top notch. We have to commend Rečica ob Savinji and other municipalities. Despite all the problems, we had headquarters in Rečica for all international forces. We established a camp there in their primary school. Everything worked as it should. In this sense, the processes are somehow defined and we improvise to a certain extent. But with a number of people who like to help, and some of them are experts that we have to use, and I think we do, things are done on a good level.

Host: What is the reason for this? A systematic work in the last years?

It's not just last years. The system is well-founded. This system was founded in the year 1994 with the Act on the Protection against Natural Disasters and separation of defense and protection. The Act on Defense and Protection was a predecessor. After that we got our Act and the Act on Defense. Before this, Civil Protection was meant mainly for state of war. Then, my predecessors realised that natural disasters are not the state of war and they renewed this system. They looked at a few European states that have this regulated. I believe we have exceeded most of these states as far as organization or functioning goes. Not to mention the structure of the system. Here, the volunteers are the core of the system, which is not the case in Europe. We can be proud of it and as I've mentioned, if we keep this system, it will function for more than 100 years.

Host: A big thanks to the volunteers.

Of course.

Host: I would like to ask something else. This was a natural disaster, probably because of the global changes. A lot of damage could be caused also by an earthquake. You said that you are preparing for it as well.

Yes. Unfortunately, the only functional preparation for the earthquake or a working measure are earthquake-resistant structures. Unfortunately, we have a lot of buildings that are not. This is a big threat for injuries and fatalities. I hope we will all realise, as soon as possible, that we have to rehabilitate these buildings or demolish them and build new ones. When we started with this research paper that we talked about, which was done at the initiative of Ljubljana or the outlines of this municipality, the professionals established the state of individual buildings in municipalities that wanted to participate in this process. It is not gratifying and I hope that we will start talking about this as well and start searching for solutions.

Host: Which locations are the worst?

The most critical one is Ljubljana as a capital and densely populated area. Unfortunately, we have defined quite a few multifamily properties, which are badly build. It will have to be considered, which is not a secret anymore. Previously it was a secret. We have an application, a result of the research paper that we have repeated four times. We made a lot of reference buildings. This application is available on gov.si POTROG, if somebody wants to know more about it. You can apply basic information on the building, where you live, and you can get a global assessment, how this building would react in the earthquake of a different level. In Slovenia, we have earthquakes from 6th till 8th grade on the European scale. The 8th grade is an area from Bovec or Posočje via Ljubljana to Posavje. There lives a million people, which is not an insignificant information. In this area lies Ljubljana and some other big cities. In the application you can get a basic information on the building or an apartment block, if you know, how it's been built and when. Then you get a colour. Red, orange or yellow, which means a different stage of damage. It is interesting, but this is a rough assessment and professionals can make it more precise, but for a certain sum that an individual has to pay. ZAG and ZRMK are professionals in this field and they make these assessments.

Host: I hope there won't be an earthquake.

Someday there will be one. It's a fact.

Host: I hope as late as possible, so we can adapt.

I agree.

Host: For the end, how does your family look at your work that is very stressful.

I have said many times that I have all the support. Lately, it gets harder, because the burden it bigger, but I don't have any problems. My wife is also my adviser. Children are all grown up now and are not so bothered with it. They both live in Ljubljana and I drive to Ilirska Bistrica. I've always had the support and understanding. I always have a phone, even on vacation. We have all adapted to such a vacation. We work without any special stress or any kind of problems.

Host: Mr. Srečko, thank you for this conversation. May good fortune be with us.

Thank you for the invitation. I wish all the best to every inhabitant of our beautiful Slovenia and as we've said, the threatening earthquake may not come for thousands of years.

Host: Thank you for being with us. This is the end of the 10th episode of government podcast GOVSI. Goodbye.