S civilno obrambo krepimo odpornost družbe

V novi oddaji GOVSI podkasta govorimo o civilni obrambi. Z generalnim direktorjem za obrambne zadeve na Ministrstvu za obrambo Boštjanom Pavlinom pojasnjujemo, kaj je bistvo civilne obrambe in kakšna je razlika med civilno obrambo in civilno zaščito.

Gre namreč za dva ločena podsistema nacionalne varnosti: civilna zaščita je namenjena odzivu na naravne nesreče, civilna obramba pa odzivu v kompleksnih krizah in dogodkih. Posamezni elementi in ukrepi, ki se načrtujejo za zagotavljanje civilne obrambe, so bili  aktivirani npr. v času množičnih migracij in med pandemijo COVID-19. Kot je povedal naš sogovornik, pa smo v Sloveniji dobro pripravljeni tudi na različne druge možne kompleksne krize sodobnega časa.

Vabljeni k poslušanju in ogledu podkasta, ki ga tokrat vodi Zoran Potič.

[ENGLISH VERSION]
In this episode of the GOVSI podcast, we discuss civil defense. Together with Boštjan Pavlin, the Director General for Defense Affairs at the Ministry of Defense, we explain the essence of civil defense and the difference between civil defense and civil protection.

These are two separate subsystems of national security: civil protection is intended for responding to natural disasters, while civil defense is aimed at addressing complex crises and events. Certain elements and measures designed for ensuring civil defense were activated, for example, during mass migrations and the COVID-19 pandemic. According to our guest, Slovenia is well-prepared for various other potential complex crises of the modern era as well.

We invite you to listen to and watch the podcast, hosted this time by Zoran Potič.

Transcript

Voditelj Zoran Potič: Pozdravljeni v novem podkastu Gov.si, v katerem se bomo posvetili obrambnim zadevam, konkretneje civilni obrambi. In kdo bi bil primernejši sogovornik na to temo kot generalni direktor za obrambne zadeve na Ministrstvu za obrambo Boštjan Pavlin. Lepo pozdravljeni.

Generalni direktor Boštjan Pavlin: Lep pozdrav.

Voditelj: Na uradu, kjer se snema ta podkast, vlade za komuniciranje, so pred meseci zagnali program boja proti dezinformacijam, kar poznamo, verjetno se je že utrdil ta slogan Preberi, premisli, preveri. In mogoče je to najboljša iztočnica, gospod Pavlin. Naj za začetek vprašam, ali ta slogan, to akcijo, ki jo je zasnoval UKOM, lahko štejemo kot del civilne obrambe? Bi lahko to umestili kot del te strategije civilne obrambe? Poznate to akcijo, kako bi opredelili?

Pavlin: Ja, seveda. Seveda poznam. Poznam to akcijo in zagotovo je ena izmed pomembnih akcij. Lahko bi rekli, da je ta akcija del procesa ki mu tudi rečemo civilna obramba. Še bolj smiselno bi bilo pa za to uporabiti pojem odpornost države, družbe in posameznika. Namreč, da bi civilna obramba lahko delovala, in sicer takrat, ko so najslabši scenariji, takrat, ko so izredne razmere oziroma v primeru vojne, potrebuje celoten razvit sistem odpornosti države in družbe, ki ga je treba v miru izgrajevati, zato da bi lahko v nekih izrednih stanjih funkcioniral.

Voditelj: Ampak zakaj je zdaj ta pojem civilna obramba postal tako aktualen? Vlada je tudi pred kratkim razglasila dan obrambe. Kaj se je zgodilo? Zakaj je bilo potrebno razglasiti dan obrambe, civilne obrambe? Do kakšnih premikov je prišlo po vašem mnenju?

Pavlin: Torej, vlada je letos razglasila 28. september za dan civilne obrambe. Zgodovinski razlog izhaja iz leta 1990, ko je takratni parlament sprejel amandmaje, ki so v državi omogočali obrambno načrtovanje. V Republiki Sloveniji imamo od takrat naprej obrambno načrtovanje, ki je bilo temelj osamosvojitvenega boja, na osnovi katerega se je dejansko razvila struktura teritorialne obrambe in hkrati tudi civilne obrambe, ki je neobhodna za to, da katera koli vojska deluje. Čisto preprosto, če si predstavljate, torej, če ima vsaka država, kot recimo ranga Slovenije, če imamo 30, 35 000 vojakov, morajo ti vojaki dnevno biti preskrbljeni s prehrano, z namestitvijo, s pranjem artiklov, vsekakor, še bolj pomembno, z mazivi, gorivi za svojo tehniko, z orožjem, z dodatnim strelivom itd. In vse to dela vedno civilna obramba. To je sistem v državi, celotne strukture države. Uporabljen termin v Natu je Whole Government oziroma Whole Society Approach. To sta dva ključnika, ki zagotavljata civilno obrambo in sta hkrati pomembna tudi za odpornost. Torej, boljša je odpornost družbe in države, toliko večja je seveda zmogljivost civilne obrambe v teh izrednih primerih. Zakaj zdaj, ko ste vprašali, zakaj se je zdaj pojavila ta tema? Slovenija ima civilno obrambo že vrsto let in obrambno načrtovanje že od leta 1990, kot sem rekel, je pa seveda zdajle skladno z geostrateško situacijo po svetu in predvsem z zavedanjem vojne v Ukrajini treba zelo jasno narediti mogoče tudi malo obnovitev miselnosti pri tistih ključnih deležnikih, ki so v kontekstu, ki zagotavljajo obrambno načrtovanje, predvsem pa želimo ozaveščati tudi prebivalstvo, naše državljane o pomenu odpornosti družbe, države in posameznika. Tako kot ste na začetku izpostavili dezinformacije. Zelo pomembno je, da naši državljani se zavedajo, da obstajajo dezinformacije, da jih je treba zaznavati, da so v Sloveniji tudi inštitucije, ki so odgovorne za zaznavo, in da vsak pri sebi razume, kdaj je treba določeno informacijo preveriti, da ne pride do zavajanja velikih množic, kar je največkrat ključen namen agresorja, takšnega ali drugačnega.

Voditelj: Skratka, če sva bolj nazorna, kaj bi bila civilna obramba? Da imamo dovoljšne število kuharjev, smetarjev, bolnišničnega osebja, vsa infrastruktura, ki bi lahko služila krepitvi obrambnih struktur?

Pavlin: Točno tako, kot ste zdaj povedali. Od te podpore, ki ste jo omenili, od kuharjev pa naprej pa hkrati do gospodarskih družb posebnega pomena za obrambo. Treba je vedeti, da v Sloveniji imamo zagotovo izjemno pomembno točko. To je Luka Koper, ki je naša vrata v svet in v vsakem primeru ključna za vsako dogajanje in mirnodobno in kako drugo obdobje v Sloveniji. Zelo pomembna sta seveda oba UKC-ja, in UKC Ljubljana in UKC Maribor, potem ravno tako Petrol in še nekatere druge inštitucije. Da imamo tukaj blagovne rezerve, da je tukaj torej velik sklop gospodarskih družb in ministrstev in uradov, ki so odgovorni za to obrambno načrtovanje. Civilna obramba v bistvu predstavlja kompleten sistem v državi, ki bi se zoperstavil poleg vojaške sile, poleg Slovenske vojske kakršnemu koli agresorju oziroma izrednemu stanju, če bi do njega prišlo. Mogoče je ta odnos z gospodarstvom zdaj še bolj zanimiv.

Voditelj: Včasih smo imeli družbeno-politične organizacije, gospodarstvo je bilo bolj politično vpeto v strukturo države. Zdaj imamo privatno lastnino. Podjetja imajo lastnike. Kako je pa ta vidik vklopljen v civilno družbo, v civilno obrambo? Obstaja komunikacija, obstaja strategija, obstaja nek protokol sodelovanja? Kako je s tem recimo na gospodarskem področju, ki predstavlja pomembno hrbtenico vsake družbe?

Pavlin: Zagotovo. V tistih najbolj neobhodnih gospodarskih družbah, ki so bistvene za podporo delovanja Slovenske vojske ali pa države v krizi, s temi gospodarskimi družbami poteka sodelovanje ves čas in ga seveda samo ves čas nadgrajujemo. Obstajajo torej tudi gospodarske družbe, ki so v privat lastnini ali pa v neki drugi lastnini, kakorkoli, in v tem primeru se morajo tovrstne družbe držati naših normativnih predpisov, ki so postavljeni, in tu moram reči, da te zahteve izpolnjujejo in da vse usmeritve Ministrstva za obrambo se redno izvajajo, tako da s tem nimamo nekih večjih izzivov, da nam lastništvo zaenkrat ne predstavlja nekih tveganj. Zagotovo pa v primeru izrednega stanja ali pa v vojni bi še marsikatera druga gospodarska družba bila tako ali drugače vključena v situacijo, ko bi morala podpirati delovanje civilne obrambe in v tistih primerih bi bilo verjetno treba rešiti tudi neke druge konkretne problematike.

Voditelj: Če se ne motim, je vlada pred kratkim potrdila strategijo civilne obrambe med drugimi strategijami s področja obrambe. Je kaj za izpostaviti tukaj? Kaj bi bilo posebej zanimivega?

Pavlin: Ja, zelo na splošno. Torej, vlada je sprejela tri dokumente, ki smo jih na ministrstvu pripravili v letošnjem letu. Torej, vrhnji dokument je obrambna strategija. Obrambna strategija nasploh govori o tem, kakšna je strategija Slovenije na obrambnem področju. In potem je ta dokument podprt z dvema strategijama. Ena je vojaška strategija in druga je strategija civilne obrambe in v bistvu ta dva dokumenta predstavljata dejansko obrambni sistem te naše države in v teh dokumentih zelo nazorno in jaz mislim, da tudi dovolj razumljivo razlagamo, na kakšen način bi se ta strategija izvajala. Pri strategiji civilne obrambe je za izpostaviti to, da ima strategija dejansko tri cilje, ki so v bistvu rdeča nit našega delovnega procesa, in sicer kot prvi cilj je tukaj podpora civilne obrambe za naraščanje sil Slovenske vojske oz. za delovanje Slovenske vojske na ozemlju Republike Slovenije. Torej, vi veste, da danes Slovenska vojska ima 7000 in še nekaj pripadnikov. V primeru vojne bi seveda ta številka narasla na recimo 25.000 ali pa morebiti celo več. In ta civilna obramba mora vse to podpirati. To je prvi cilj strategije obrambe. Drugi cilj strategije civilne obrambe je zagotovitev neprekinjenega delovanja oblasti in vseh njenih segmentov, torej neprekinjenost delovanja, ki je v bistvu neobhodna na vseh nivojih, najsi bo to na državnem nivoju ali pa v lokalnih skupnostih ali v gospodarstvu. In tretji cilj, morebiti še najbolj pomemben, je zagotovitev preživetja prebivalstva in gospodarstva. Torej tukaj je pa zdaj še ta segment, kjer mora struktura v civilni obrambi zagotavljati to, da bodo tudi prebivalci imeli vse tisto, kar je neobhodno v izrednih stanjih ali pa v vojnem stanju. Kot nekako že, če gledamo na primeru krize, ko smo imeli poplave in požare, tudi takrat v Sloveniji v obrambnem resorju nekako prevzemamo ključno koordinacijo, namreč poleg Slovenske vojske in poleg teh zmogljivosti, o katerih govorimo, civilne obrambe, je tudi Uprava Republike Slovenije za zaščito in reševanje. Torej vse te krizne situacije se kljub temu pri nas upravljajo, tako da smo zelo aktivni na tem področju.

Voditelj: Mogoče je na tej točki eno zanimivo vprašanje. Namreč, slovenska javnost o civilni obrambi verjamem, da ne ve kaj dosti. Vsaj medijsko se je ni omenjalo. Verjamem, da v ozadju Obstajajo papirji, dokumentacije, ljudje, ki se s tem ukvarjajo, ampak navzven to ni bilo prisotno. Veliko bolj je bila prisotna civilna zaščita. Zdaj imamo civilno zaščito, ki je ob vsaki priliki prisotna med ljudmi, civilna obramba pa ni prisotna. Je tu mogoče ... Kakšna je primerjava teh dveh zgodb? Se kje prekrivata? Kako ju ne pomešati?

Pavlin: Zelo preprosto bi lahko opredelili, kje se ti dve točki ločujeta. Torej, ko govorimo o naravnih nesrečah, ki povzročijo materialno škodo ali pa neko drugo škodo in prekinejo to normalno življenje v Sloveniji, ko govorimo o teh naravnih katastrofah, takrat je odzivnost na strani Uprave Republike Slovenije za zaščito in reševanje oziroma civilne zaščite in to je njihova pristojnost. Ko pa govorimo o kakršnihkoli drugih izrednih situacijah, ko govorimo o nekih drugih kompleksnih krizah, ki bi lahko nastale v Sloveniji, tudi morebiti take, kot je bila pandemija, recimo take, kot je bila migrantska kriza 2015. Recimo takšno stanje, kjer bi se v neki sosednji državi zgodilo neko izredno stanje, ki bi tudi vplivalo na Slovenijo, vse tisto je pa zdaj ločnica, je pa tisto, kar bi začeli obravnavati kot kompleksno krizo. Seveda kompleksne krize obravnava in zanje je odgovorna vlada s svojimi telesi kriznega upravljanja in če bi prišlo do izrednega stanja, v teh primerih je potem tukaj civilna obramba tista, ki podpira te dejavnosti. Tako da civilna zaščita naravne nesreče, vse ostalo, izredno stanje, pa seveda vojaška in pa civilna obramba je tisto, kar imamo v tej državi v ta namen.

Voditelj: Pa sta to dva ločena sistema ali se v bistvu zaradi kadrovskih zadev tudi kaj prekrivata? To je ločeno?

Pavlin: To sta dva ločena sistema. Tudi kadrovsko so to ločene strukture. To sta dva različna oziroma URSZR je uprava, to, kar jaz vodim na Ministrstvu za obrambo, je direktorat za obrambne zadeve, torej svoj samostojen direktorat, ki ima v svoji strukturi pristojnost tudi vodenja Nacionalnega centra za krizno upravljanje, ki je na nek način vsekakor stičišče vseh situacij, ki odstopajo od nekakšnega rednega delovanja v državi. In tam je tudi neka kompletna situacijska slika. Ja.

Voditelj: Na tem direktoratu je verjetno velik poudarek na komunikacijah. Obstajajo scenariji, kjer internet ne funkcionira, komunikacije propadejo, lahko domnevamo, da družba se takrat znajde, še posebno v digitalni dobi, se znajde v neki temi. Ima država sistem, kjer komunikacija bo funkcionirala kljub temu, da pride do takšnega mrka te razsežnosti? Imamo to vzpostavljeno?

Pavlin: Imamo vzpostavljene sisteme za različne načine motenja in za različne načine prekinitve telekomunikacijskih sistemov v državi. Ravno zaradi tega je za nas tudi zelo pomemben, recimo RTV kot takšen, ki ima dejansko svoje zmogljivosti po Sloveniji in s svojimi oddajniki predstavlja zelo pomembno zmogljivost v tem kontekstu komuniciranja. Seveda so pripravljeni raznorazni načrti. Imamo tudi svoje samostojne komunikacijsko-informacijske sisteme na ministrstvu, ki podpirajo delovanje v kriznih razmerah oziroma so povezani vsi na eno in isto točko in jih tudi izgrajujemo. Torej naš komunikacijsko-informacijski sistem Nacionalnega centra za krizno upravljanje, ki ga res povezujemo z vsemi ključnimi deležniki po državi.

Voditelj: Skratka, RTV Slovenija je v tem sklopu pomemben gradnik te naloge obrambne, recimo komunikacijske.

Pavlin: Tako, seveda. Obramba ... Mogoče ta stavek. Obramba vsekakor ni samo vojaška domena in samo vojaško branjenje celovitosti ozemlja, ampak obramba ima bistveno širši pomen. Gre za res to družbeno organiziranje v teh primerih, recimo v primeru vojne. In ravno to družbeno organiziranje smo odlično videli leta 1991. In tukaj lahko rečemo, da na tem področju imamo dober, zanesljiv sistem, ki ga tudi marsikatere druge države kopirajo.

Voditelj: Ja, če se še malo navežem na preteklost. Iz mojega otroštva, recimo, so bile znane akcije NNP. Nič nas ne sme presenetiti. Cela družba je bila vključena v neke vaje in tako naprej. Je slovenska družba v tem trenutku po vaši oceni usposobljena, pripravljena na neke vrste grožnje tega tipa, kar spremljamo v okolici? Kako smo pripravljeni? Obstaja neka ocena te vrste?

Pavlin: Zdaj, kako je družba pripravljena, je morebiti težko soditi, zagotovo pa lahko sklepamo, da je naša družba zelo dobro informirana. Verjamem, da kljub temu, da v naši državi zelo lepo in mirno živimo, da se zavedamo, da je vojna v Ukrajini res zelo blizu. Konec koncev, pred časom se verjetno spomnite v Zagrebu, ko je en brezpilotni letalnik sredi noči priletel skoraj na naselje.

Voditelj: Študentske domove.

Pavlin: Tako. Sicer izven naselja in ni nič zadel, ni bilo nobenih žrtev in nobene škode, lahko bi se pa zgodila enormna tragedija. In seveda, mediji nas vsak dan redno obveščajo o vseh situacijah in jaz mislim, da kljub vsemu naši državljani razumejo, da niso mirni časi. Konec koncev divja trenutno na svetu največ vojn po drugi svetovni vojni. Treba je povedati, da se pa res sistemsko trudimo in na obrambi in na vseh drugih resorjih za dvig odpornosti na raznih področjih. Recimo ravno v tem kontekstu smo letos ob dnevu civilne obrambe, ki smo ga praznovali prejšnji teden v Mariboru, skupaj z ostalimi resorji pripravili vrsto dogodkov, ki se bodo odvili v naslednjih treh mesecih. Pa jih mogoče par povzamem.

Voditelj: Prosim.

Pavlin: Zelo pomembna stvar bo posvet, ki ga pripravlja Ministrstvo za kmetijstvo. In sicer pogoji za zagotavljanje samooskrbe v Sloveniji. Zelo pomembna zadeva samooskrba kot taka in kot je na posvetu izpostavil predstavnik ministrstva, zelo veliko pozornost v prihodnje moramo nameniti temu, na kakšen način bomo upravljali z našimi kmetijskimi zemljišči. Zelo pomembno, namreč moramo skrbeti za določeno samooskrbo. Veste, ko so enkrat dobavne verige pretrgane, kar se zelo hitro zgodi, je zelo težko zagotavljati prehrano, kaj šele kakšne druge surovine v celi državi. Če nadaljujem, na Ministrstvu za notranje zadeve bodo naredili posvet o medvrstniškem nasilju, potem na zdravstvu bodo naredili posvet o delovanju in odzivih zdravstva v izrednih razmerah. Potem Ministrstvo za vzgojo in izobraževanje bo pripravilo kampanjo Digitalne kompetence ter varnost na spletu in tudi Ministrstvo za kulturo bo naredilo posvet na temo zaščite kulturne dediščine v izrednem in vojnem stanju, torej z zelo širokim naborom vsega skupaj, jaz mislim, da okoli 30 raznih posvetov, dogodkov se bo zgodilo v Sloveniji, ki bodo poskušali na vse možne različne načine nagovarjati in razlagati, kaj je odpornost države, družbe in pa seveda posameznika, osebe. In ravno v tem kontekstu tudi mi poskušamo z Ministrstvom za šolstvo pripraviti skupaj en program, ki bi tudi našim otrokom dal tisto osnovno zavedanje, ki bi jih pripravilo in na nek način dvignilo odpornost, pa naj bodo to dezinformacije, ki so pri njih zelo pomembne. Namreč na TikToku je čas verjetno par sekund, tri, štiri, pet sekund in mladostnik že absorbira določeno informacijo in je to zelo težko kontrolirati, zato jih je treba o tem osveščati. Kibernetska varnost je danes zelo popularna in še marsikaj drugega. Torej tudi z Ministrstvom za šolstvo razvijamo nek program, ki bo vse te stvari utemeljeval.

Voditelj: Skratka, na vašem direktoratu vam ni dolgčas. Nalog je veliko. Glede na to, da je civilna obramba prvič letos praznovala nek poseben dan, za v prihodnje se verjetno planira, načrtuje še veliko aktivnosti in krepitve odpornosti. Za konec bi še kaj dodali na to temo?

Pavlin: Ja, mogoče samo še en stavek v zvezi z odpornostjo. Torej, odpornost je seveda razporejena na različnih področjih in poskušamo v medresorskem sodelovanju z vsemi resorji res vzpodbujati, da tukaj vsi tvorno skupaj sodelujemo. V tej odpornosti moramo reči, da je 12 področij in za teh 12 področij je treba skrbeti, je treba ljudi usposabljati in izobraževati. Ta področja, če želite, dovolite, da jih naštejem.

Voditelj: Prosim.

Pavlin: So torej nacionalno-varnostni sistem, področje energetike, pitna voda in hrana, finančni sistem, gospodarstvo, zdravje, IKT sistemi in omrežja, transport, družbena odgovornost, okolje, prostor in naravni viri, strateško komuniciranje ter vesolje in nove tehnologije. Torej 12 področij odpornosti, na katerih je treba in sistemsko in na vseh drugih področjih izgrajevati, zato mi tudi pripravljamo sklep vlade, ki bo določil nosilce te odpornosti za posamezne resorje. Hkrati se pa že zdaj v ključnih odborih Nata na tem področju odpornosti, ki je zelo aktiven, vključujemo mi in tudi predstavniki odpornosti, tako da odpornost z razumevanjem in delovanjem celotne skupnosti je tisto, kar želimo doseči v prihodnje.

Voditelj: Gospod Pavlin, najlepša hvala za pogovor, za zanimiv pogovor v podkastu, v novem, zadnjem podkastu Gov.si in nasvidenje do naslednjič.

Pavlin: Hvala in lep pozdrav.


[ENGLISH VERSION]
Host Zoran Potič: Greetings, this is GOVSI podcast and today's topic is defence, civil defence to be exact. And who is more appropriate for this than the director general for defence affairs in Ministry of defence Boštjan Pavlin. Hello.

Mr. Boštjan Pavlin: Greetings.

Host: The Government Communication Office, where this podcast is being filmed, a month ago launched a program for fighting against disinformation. I believe this slogan is already known: "Read it, think about it and check it." Maybe this is the best cue Mr. Pavlin. Let me ask you. Can this slogan, conceived by this office, be a part of a civil defence? Can we consider it as a part of a civil defence strategy? Do you know this campaign? How would you define it?
Pavlin: Of course I know this campaign. It is one of the important ones. We could say that this campaign is part of the process, called a civil defence. It would be even more logical to use a term resilience of the state, society and individual. For a civil defence to work, when we experience the worst case scenarios or emergency situations or in case of war, it needs a completely developed system of the resilience, which has to be build calmly for it to work in emergency situations.
Host: Why is the term civil defence so relevant now? The government has recently declared a defence day. What has happened? Why was it necessary to announce this day? What has changed in your opinion?
Pavlin: Well... This year, the government has declared the 28th September for the civil defence day. A historical reason is based in the year 1990, when the parliament adopted amendments, which enabled the state to plan the defence. From that date on, we have defence planning in Slovenia, which was a foundation for independence battles. On this basis we developed a structure for Territorial Defence and civil defence at the same time, since it is essential for the working of any kind of army. Very simply, if you can imagine that every state like Slovenia has approximately 30,000 soldiers. And these soldiers need food, accommodation, washing of items. And it's even more important to have grease and fuel for their technical items, weapons, ammunitions etc. All this is always provided by the civil defence, a system in the structure of the state. In NATO they use a term whole government or whole society approach. These are two key hashtags that ensure civil defence and are at the same time important for resilience. The better resilience of the society and state, the greater capability of the civil defence in emergency states. Why now? You asked me, why is this topic so important now? Slovenia has civil defence for many years and defence planning since 1990. But according to the geostrategic situation around the world and above all, to the awareness of the Ukrainian war, we need to make a very clear renewal of the mindset by the key participles ensuring the defence planning. But most of all, we want to raise awareness among citizens about the meaning of resilience of the state, society and individual. At the beginning you stressed disinformation. It is very important that the citizens know about them. We have to detect them and we have institutions, responsible for detecting. Everybody should understand, when we have to check some information that the crowds aren't being misled, which is the main purpose of the aggressor. Of one kind or another.
Host: To be more explicit. What would constitute a civil defence? To have enough cooks, garbagemen, hospital staff? All infrastructure that could serve for strengthening the defence?

Pavlin:  Exactly. From the support you have mentioned all the way to the corporations that have a special meaning for defence. In Slovenia, we have a very important spot, the Port of Koper, which is our gateway to the world and of key importance for every event, in peace time or in other periods in Slovenia. Both University Medical Centres, in Ljubljana and Maribor. Likewise Petrol and some other institutions. We have commodity stocks, a big cluster of corporations, ministries and offices that are responsible for this defence planning. Civil defence features a whole system in the state that would resist any kind of aggressor or potential emergency situation together with the Slovenian army.

Host: Maybe this relation with the economy is even more interesting. Before, we had socio-political organizations. The economy was politically built in the structure of the state. Now, we have private property, companies have proprietors. How is this aspect engaged with the civil defence? Is there any communication, strategy or protocol of cooperation? How is this in economic sector, which is a backbone of any society?

Pavlin:  I agree. With corporations that are essential for supporting Slovenian army or state in crisis we are cooperating all the time and we are just upgrading it. There are also companies that are owned privately or otherwise. In those cases, such companies must adhere to our statutory regulations. I must say that they meet those demands and all of the guidelines of the Ministry of Defence are regularly carried out, so we do not have any significant challenges on that front. Ownership does not pose any particular risks to us. But certainly, in case of an emergency or war, many other companies would also be included one way or another in supporting civil defence. In such cases we would probably have to solve certain other problems as well.

Host: If I am not mistaken, the government has recently approved the civil defence strategy, among other defence-related strategies. Is there anything particularly interesting to point out there?

Pavlin:  Yes. Very generally speaking, the government has adopted three documents that we have prepared at the Ministry this year. The top document is the Defence Strategy, which is about the general defence strategy of Slovenia. This document is supported by two strategies, one is the military strategy, and the other is the civil defense strategy. These two documents represent our country's defence system and they very clearly and comprehensively explain how this strategy is to be implemented. The civil defence strategy has three goals, which are the common thread of our work process. The first goal is supporting civil defence in the reinforcement of the Slovenian Armed Forces or for the operation of the Armed Forces within the territory of the Republic of Slovenia. As you know, the Slovenian Armed Forces have a little over 7,000 members. In case of war, this number would increase by 25,000 or even more. Civil defence has to support that, that is the first goal of the defence strategy. The second goal of the civil defence strategy is to ensure the uninterrupted operation of the government and all of its branches. So, uninterrupted operation, which is indispensable at all levels, be it at the state level, in local communities or the economy. The third, and perhaps most important goal, is to ensure the survival of the populace and the economy. So, here we now have this additional segment, where the civil defence structure has to ensure that the people also still have everything that is indispensable in a state of emergency or war. We can look at the example of the recent crises with flooding and wildfires. In such cases, the Ministry of Defence takes on crucial coordination. In addition to the Armed Forces and the other capacities we are talking about, the Administration for Civil Protection and Disaster Relief is also part of civil defence. So, we manage all such crises and we are very active. I have an interesting question at this point. The Slovenian public probably doesn't know very much about civil defence.

Host: It wasn't mentioned by the media, although I am sure that, in the background, there are papers, documents and people that deal with that, but it wasn't outwardly apparent like Civil Protection was. Civil Protection is present among the people at every opportunity, while civil defence isn't. Can we perhaps compare the two? Is there any overlap between them? How do we not confuse one with the other?

Pavlin:  We can define the distinction between the two very simply. When there are natural disasters that cause material damage or any other kind of damage, and interrupt normal life in Slovenia, the response falls on the Administration for Civil Protection and Disaster Relief, that is their jurisdiction. But when there is any other kind of emergency, some other complex crises that could arise in Slovenia, like the pandemic, for example, or the migrant crisis in 2015, or perhaps when there is a state of emergency in a neighbouring country that could also affect Slovenia, all of those could be defined as complex crises, which are the responsibility of the government or rather its crisis-management bodies. In such cases of emergency, civil defence is the one supporting those activities.

Host: So, Civil Protection deals with natural disasters, for all other emergencies in this country we have the Armed Forces and civil defence. Are they separate systems or is there some overlap in staff?

Pavlin:  They are two separate systems. They are also separate structures in terms of staff. Civil Protection and Disaster Relief is an administration, while at the Ministry of Defence I head the Defence Affairs Directorate, an independent directorate that also runs the National Crisis Management Centre, which is the junction for all situations that deviate from any sort of normal operation in the country, with a comprehensive overview of the situation. This Directorate probably places great emphasis on communications. There are scenarios where the internet is disabled, communications go down and society, we can assume, especially in the digital age, finds itself in the dark.

Host: Does the state have a system in place for communications to function despite a blackout of this magnitude?

Pavlin:  We do. We have systems in place for different ways of interfering and for different ways of interruption of telecommunication systems in the country. That's why national radio and television is very important to us, because it has its own facilities across Slovenia, its transmitters represent a very important capacity in this context of communication. Of course, there are all sorts of plans in place. We also have our own independent communication and information systems, which support the operation in crisis situations. They're all connected to the same point. We're also building our own communication and information system of the National Crisis Management Centre which we're linking to all the key stakeholders across the country.

Host: In short, RTV Slovenia is an important building block in this defence and communication context.

Pavlin:  That's right. Defence is certainly not just in the domain of the military, it's not just about the military defending the integrity of our territory. Defence has a much broader meaning. It's really about organisation of society in these cases, say in the case of war. We saw this organisation of society perfectly in 1991. We can say that in this area we have a good, reliable system, which many other countries are copying.

Host: Let's refer a bit to the past. In my childhood, for example, there were 'nothing should surprise us' campaigns. The whole society was involved in some kind of exercises and so on. Is Slovenian society at the moment, in your opinion, competent, prepared for the threats that we're seeing around us? How prepared are we?

Pavlin:  There is an assessment. It's probably difficult to judge how prepared the society is. But we can certainly conclude that our society is very well informed. I believe that, despite the fact that life in our country is very nice and peaceful, we're aware that the war in Ukraine is really very close. After all, some time ago, you probably remember, a drone crashed in Zagreb in the middle of the night.
Host: Near student dormitories.

Pavlin:  That's right. Nothing was hit, there were no casualties and no damage. But there could have been an enormous tragedy. Of course, the media keep us informed about everything every day. I think that, in spite of everything, our citizens understand that these are not peaceful times. After all, at the moment, there are more wars in the world than at any time since the Second World War. But it has to be said that we're making a systemic effort, at the Defence Ministry and all other ministries, to increase resilience in various areas. In this context, for this year's Civil Defence Day, which we celebrated last week in Maribor, we've organised a series of events that will take place over the next three months. Can I summarise a few?

Host: Go ahead.

Pavlin:  A very important thing will be the consultation that the Ministry of Agriculture is organising. Namely, the conditions for ensuring self-sufficiency in Slovenia. Self-sufficiency as such is a very important matter. And as the representative of the Ministry pointed out at the consultation, we need to pay a great deal of attention in the future to the way in which we will manage our agricultural land. We need to think of our self-sufficiency. Once the supply chains are broken, which happens very quickly, it's very difficult to provide food, let alone other raw materials for the whole country. The Ministry of the Interior will host a consultation on peer violence. The Ministry of Health will host a consultation on the functioning of health services in emergency situations. The Ministry of Education will lead a digital competences and online safety campaign. The Ministry of Culture will host a consultation on the protection of cultural heritage in emergency and war. So a very broad range. I think there will be around 30 different consultations and events in Slovenia, which will try to address and explain in different ways what is the resilience of a country, society and, of course, the individual. And it's in this context that we're also trying to work with the Ministry of Education on a programme that would provide our children with a basic awareness, that would prepare them and in some way raise their resilience, whether it be to the misinformation that is very important for them. On TikTok, adolescents are absorbing certain information in a matter of seconds. That's very difficult to control, so they need to be made aware of it. Cyber security is very popular today. And many other things. So we're working with the Ministry of Education on developing a programme that will explain all these things. In short, you're not bored at your directorate. There are a lot of tasks. This was the first year civil defence celebrated a special day. There are probably a lot of activities planned for the future, and resilience-building.

Host: Would you like to add anything on this subject?

Pavlin:  Maybe just one more sentence about resilience. Resilience is, of course, spread over different areas. In inter-ministerial cooperation with all the departments, we're really trying to encourage constructive cooperation. Resilience consists of 12 areas, and those 12 areas need to be taken care of, people need to be trained and educated. Let me list them.
Host: Please.

Pavlin:  The national security system, energy, drinking water and food, the financial system, the economy, healthcare, ICT systems and networks, transport, social responsibility, environment, space and natural resources, strategic communications and space and new technologies. So, twelve areas of resilience that need to be worked on systemically and spread to all other areas. That's why we're also preparing a government decision that will designate the departments responsible for resilience. At the same time, we're already joining key committees on resilience in NATO, which is very active. Resilience with the understanding and action of the whole community is what we want to achieve in the future.

Host: Mr. Pavlin, thank you very much for talking to us, for an interesting conversation for the Gov.si podcast. See you next time.

Pavlin: Thank you, goodbye.