GOVSI podkast: Brez javnega sektorja države ni

V 20. epizodi GOVSI podkasta se je voditeljica Petra Bezjak Cirman pogovarjala z državno sekretarko na Ministrstvu za javno upravo Mojco Ramšak Pešec in predsednico Sindikata zdravstva in socialnega varstva Ireno Ilešič Čujovič. Govorile so pomenu javnega sektorja za družbo in prenovi plačnega sistema, ki prinaša pomembne spremembe za več kot 188.000 zaposlenih v javnem plačnem sistemu.. 
 
Gostji razložita, zakaj je javni sektor nepogrešljiv steber družbe, dotakneta se tudi pogostih stereotipov o javnih uslužbencih in poudarita, da delo v javnem sektorju zahteva veliko odgovornosti, strokovnosti in predanosti. Državna sekretarka poudari, da brez javnega sektorja ne samo v Sloveniji, v kateri koli državi, države ni. »Vsi ga rabimo dnevno, pa najsi gre ne samo za upravne storitve, najsi gre za zdravstvo, šolstvo, predšolsko vzgojo, kulturo, znanost, vse te naše inštitucije, ki nam nudijo dejansko vsakodnevni servis, ki ga potrebujemo za svoje življenje, tako da je izredno pomembno, da ta nivo servisa, ki ga imamo v Sloveniji, da ga ohranimo, ker sem prepričana, da ga imamo na dosti visoki, zavidljivi ravni,« je izpostavila.

Osrednji del pogovora je namenjen prenovi plačnega sistema, ki se je spremenil prvič po 15 letih in po kateri nihče v javnem sektorju ne bo prejel plačila, nižjega od minimalne plače. Predsednico Sindikata zdravstva in socialnega varstva poudari, da je bilo tekom pogajanja »veliko orehov za streti«, in da ni bilo samoumevno, da  je bil sklenjen dogovor. »Bilo je potrebne kar nekaj modrosti tako na vladni kot na sindikalni strani,« je dejala. 

Prenova bo pripomogla k večji privlačnosti javnega sektorja za mlade in zagotovila boljše pogoje za že zaposlene.

Vabljeni k poslušanju podkasta na vaši priljubljeni platformi in ogledu! 

[ENGLISH VERSION]

GOVSI Podcast: Without the Public Sector, There Is No State

In the 20th episode of the GOVSI podcast, host Petra Bezjak Cirman talks with Mojca Ramšak Pešec, State Secretary at the Ministry of Public Administration, and Irena Ilešič Čujovič, President of the Health and Social Care Trade Union. They discuss the importance of the public sector for society and the reform of the public pay system, which brings significant changes for more than 188,000 employees within the public wage framework.

The guests explain why the public sector is an indispensable pillar of society. They also address common stereotypes about public employees and emphasize that working in the public sector requires a great deal of responsibility, expertise, and dedication. The State Secretary highlights that without the public sector—not only in Slovenia but in any country—there is no functioning state. "We all rely on it daily, whether it’s administrative services, healthcare, education, preschool care, culture, science—all these institutions provide us with essential everyday services we need to live. It’s incredibly important that we maintain the level of service we have in Slovenia because I believe it’s at a high and commendable standard," she pointed out.

The core of the conversation focuses on the pay system reform, which has been overhauled for the first time in 15 years. Following the reform, no public sector employee will receive a wage lower than the minimum wage. The President of the Health and Social Care Trade Union stresses that there were “many tough nuts to crack” during the negotiations, and that reaching an agreement was by no means a given. "It took a good deal of wisdom on both the government and union sides," she said.

The reform will help make the public sector more attractive to young people and will improve conditions for those already employed.

Tune in to the podcast on your favorite platform and have a listen or watch the discussion!

Transcript

Vladni podkast Gov.si.

Voditeljica Petra Bezjak Cirman: Dober dan, spoštovane gledalke in gledalci, poslušalke in poslušalci. Dobrodošli v 20. epizodi vladnega podkasta Gov.si v produkciji Urada Republike Slovenije za komuniciranje. Z vami sem Petra Bezjak Cirman. Danes smo podkast povabili dve zelo zanimivi gostji, saj se bomo pogovarjali o javnih storitvah, o pomenu javnega sektorja in o nedavno sprejeti prenovi plačnega sistema. Z nami sta državna sekretarka na ministrstvu za javno upravo Mojca Ramšak Pešec. Dobrodošli. 

Gostja Mojca Ramšak Pešec: Dober dan.

Voditeljica Petra Bezjak Cirman: In predsednica Sindikata zdravstva in socialnega varstva Slovenije Irena Ilešič Čujovič. Dobrodošli.

Gostja Irena Ilešič Čujovič: Lep pozdrav.

Voditeljica: Obe sta intenzivno sodelovali pri pogajanjih in prenovi plačnega sistema. Gospa Ramšak na vladni strani, gospa Ilešič pa na sindikalni strani. Obe sta tudi izjemni poznavalki našega javnega sektorja. Gospa Ramšak, vi ste že 30 let zaposleni v javnem sektorju. Veliko ste bili na vodilnih mestih. Gospa Ilešič Čujovič, poleg vodenja sindikata ste tudi podpredsednica Konfederacije sindikatov javnega sektorja. Zato najprej bolj osebno vprašanje za obe. Kako sta si izbrali vajina poklica oziroma poslanstvo, da delata v in za javni sektor? Izvolite.

Ramšak Pešec: Ja. Hvala lepa za povabilo najprej. Ja, jaz sem sicer po poklicu diplomirana pravnica, se pa bojim, da v nobenem pravniškem poklicu ne bi čutila takšnega zadovoljstva s svojim delom kot v javnem sektorju. Ko sem spoznavala samo sebe tekom te svoje skoraj 32-letne kariere, sem nekako prišla do ugotovitve, da mi največ pomeni pri mojem delu, da delam tisto, kar mislim, da je prav, da delam dobro za ljudi. Da delam na velikih sistemih in da lahko kar koli izboljšam na bolje. In sem prepričana, da v nobeni zasebni dejavnosti ne bi imela priložnosti delati takšnih stvari, tako da me zelo izpopolnjuje, da lahko delam velike sistemske stvari. Delam dobro za ljudi in to me vodi pri mojem delu bolj kot karkoli drugega. Zdi se mi, da v nobenem drugem poklicu ali delu v svojem poklicu ne bi bila tako izpopolnjena in zadovoljna s svojim delom kot tu.

Voditeljica: Poklic ali poslanstvo?

Ilešič Čujovič: Zanimivo, da ko sem poslušala zdajle državno sekretarko, da bi lahko marsikaj ponovila. Podobno kot gospa Ramšak Pešec sem jaz tudi pravnica, ampak čutim to, kar delam že več kot desetletje, desetletje in pol, zares kot poslanstvo. Meni se zdi, da sem prava srečnica, da lahko hkrati pravzaprav spreminjam življenje v naši družbi na bolje, sodelujem tvorno pri sistemskih spremembah, ki zasledujejo neke pozitivne cilje, in hkrati pomagam najranljivejši skupini ljudi, torej delavkam in delavcem predvsem v teh dveh dejavnostih, ki ju naš sindikat pokriva, torej zdravstvu in socialnem varstvu.

Voditeljica: Javni sektor je izjemno pomemben. Pravijo, da je srce ali hrbtenica naše družbe, naše demokracije. V njem je zaposlenih 188 000 ljudi. Zveni ogromno, ampak kaj vse obsega?

Ramšak Pešec: Javni sektor, tako kot imamo opredeljeno, v Sloveniji dejansko obsega vse, kar zajema javne storitve v Republiki Sloveniji na različnih nivojih, tako na državnem kot na lokalnem, tako da so zajeti subjekti vsi, tako upravni, v okviru državne uprave, vseh občinskih uprav, pravosodni organi, vsi drugi samostojni državni organi in potem vsi izvajalci, katerih ustanovitelj je Republika Slovenija ali posamezne občine, ki izvajajo javne storitve. Tako da dejansko mislim, da gre za zelo široko definicijo javnega sektorja in s tem tudi opredelitve javnega sektorja in zaradi tega tudi ta številka zaposlenih v javnem sektorju lahko izgleda veliko, ampak dejansko je to ena izmed širših definicij javnega sektorja, kot obstaja v evropskem prostoru. Sicer v evropskem prostoru ni enotne definicije javnega sektorja. Tudi pri nas se bojim, da v Sloveniji ne, ker na primer, če pogledamo statistične podatke in opredelitev statističnega urada, kaj je javni sektor, so bolj opredeljeni na to, kako je financiran in kakšen je delež javnega financiranja pri subjektih, tako da določeni subjekti, ki jih opredeljujemo kot javni sektor iz te definicije lahko celo izpadejo, če imajo veliko tržnih prihodkov, določeni so pa zajeti tudi v to opredelitev. Tako da glede na obseg dejavnosti število subjektov, ki so vključeni, gre res za zagotovo največjega delodajalca v Republiki Sloveniji, tudi če zajamemo tudi samo ta del, ožji del upravni, gre res za velikega delodajalca, veliko število ljudi in tudi velik sistem, ki ga imamo možnost, priložnost in odgovornost upravljati.

Voditeljica: Ampak v tem ožjem smislu državne uprave pa okrog 20 000.

Ramšak Pešec: Če pogledamo samo civilni del, ta upravni del, ja, če pa v okvir državne uprave prištejemo še vojsko in policijo, jih je pa čez 35 000.

Voditeljica. Gospa Ilešič Čujovič, že sami ste omenili, da ste predstavnica sindikata tistih poklicev, ki skrbijo za najbolj ranljive v naši družbi. Kakšno je vaše poslanstvo, poslanstvo vaših zaposlenih v javnem sektorju?

Ilešič Čujovič: Pokrivajo dva izjemno pomembna družbena podsistema. Brez njiju seveda ni osnovnega zdravja ljudi, ni tega socialnega čuta, ki ga zasledujejo v celotnem socialnem varstvu in brez teh dveh družbenih podsistemov, skupaj z ostalimi sistemi, ki jih podpira javni sektor, torej tako vzgoja in izobraževanje kot kultura, kot seveda tudi državna uprava, vključno s policijo in vojsko, brez tega si v resnici ni moč zamisliti tega, kako bi v naši državi živeli. To tudi zasleduje Konfederacija sindikatov javnega sektorja, katere podpredsednica sem in ki združuje osem pomembnih, velikih sindikatov v javnem sektorju.

Voditeljica: Malo pozneje bomo govorili nekaj o stereotipih v javnem sektorju, bomo pa nekaj pozitivnega izpostavile, in sicer nekaj, kar razbija te stereotipe. Raziskava o zadovoljstvu z nekaterimi javnimi storitvami ob določenih prelomnicah v življenju, ki jo je med oktobrom in novembrom lani med desetimi evropskimi državami izvedel OECD, Organizacija za gospodarsko sodelovanje in razvoj, je pokazala, da so slovenski uporabniki z njimi zadovoljni in dobijo, kar pričakujejo. Povprečno zadovoljstvo s storitvami znaša 70 odstotkov, v Sloveniji pa 75 odstotkov. Kako komentirata ta rezultat?

Ramšak Pešec: Če pogledamo storitve, ki jih je raziskava zajela, gre v glavnem za upravne storitve, se pravi, ko državljani urejajo posamezne svoje upravne postopke, osebne dokumente, upokojevanje, gradbena dovoljenja, razne listine, ki jih potrebujejo za urejanje svojega statusa. Jaz mislim, da je tak odziv dejansko rezultat realnega stanja. Ker če pogledamo, postopki, ki se odvijajo na upravnih enotah, so v zadnjih letih postali veliko bolj prijazni in tudi samo delovanje upravnih enot prijazno, tako da mislim, da gre za zaslužene rezultate in da so objektivni.

Voditeljica: Še vi?

Ilešič Čujovič: Jaz mislim, da živimo v urejeni državi, da je to treba poudariti. Zagotovo je vedno in povsod prostor za izboljševanje na vseh ravneh, ampak zavedati se, da ni vse slabo in da ni treba vsak dan vsega postaviti na kocko ali pa pod vprašaj. To v resnici kaže tudi ta raziskava. Večkrat bi si morali to povedati.

Voditeljica: Zdaj pa na stereotipe oziroma mite, ki bi jih morali razbiti. Javni sektor naj bi imeli varne službe, dobro plačane, pa še ne delamo veliko. Hkrati pa si verjetno težko predstavljamo, da vse te storitve, ki jih izvajamo v javnem sektorju, da bi bile tržno naravnane in dobičkonosne. Zakaj se vam zdi pomemben javni sektor v Sloveniji?

Ramšak Pešec: Brez javnega sektorja ne samo v Sloveniji, v kateri koli državi, države ni. Jaz mislim, da je to eden, oziroma prepričana sem, eden bistvenih elementov vsake države. Kar se tiče stereotipa dela v javnem sektorju, gre, bom jaz rekla, lahko za škodljiv in celo žaljiv stereotip do zaposlenih javnih uslužbencev, ker gre za izredno široko paleto nalog, izredno odgovornih, ker tu v bistvu ustvarjamo sisteme, katerih uporabniki so naši državljani, se pravi s tem posredno in neposredno skrbimo za svoje državljane in gre tudi za zahtevno delo in tudi privlačno za mlade, v kolikor jim ta način dela ustreza, ker namreč take širine, ki jo lahko v javnem sektorju dosežeš, jaz lahko rečem za upravni del, kjer delam sama, mislim, da v nobenem zasebnem podjetju ni take široke palete možnosti različnih del, vstopanja v različne situacije, dela z različnimi deležniki. Mislim, da malokatero zasebno podjetje takšno širino in takšno možnost daje. Tako da je tu priložnosti veliko. Dela je tudi veliko in odgovornost velika, tako da vsakdo, ki pokaže oziroma ima odnos do dela, ki kaže vsaj malo proaktivnosti, odgovornosti, mislim, da v javnem sektorju lahko naredi kariero. In slej ko prej se ga tudi vidi in prepozna. Pomen javnega sektorja je pa neizpodbiten. Vsi ga rabimo dnevno, pa najsi gre ne samo za upravne storitve, najsi gre za zdravstvo, šolstvo, predšolsko vzgojo, kulturo, znanost, vse te naše inštitucije, ki nam nudijo dejansko vsakodnevni servis, ki ga potrebujemo za svoje življenje, tako da je izredno pomembno, da ta nivo servisa, ki ga imamo v Sloveniji, da ga ohranimo, ker sem prepričana, da ga imamo na dosti visoki, zavidljivi ravni. Seveda se nam vsake toliko časa na posameznih delih pojavi, bom rekla ne težava, ampak izziv, kako to ohraniti ali izboljšati. Ampak gre to za življenjske situacije, ki so bolj ali manj pričakovane v življenju. Je pa potrebno, da ohranimo javni servis in javne storitve na tej ravni, kjer je prvenstveno v ospredju dostopnost, kvaliteta, solidarnost, vzajemnost pri izvajanju in nikakor ne smemo dovoliti, da bi javne storitve bile postavljene kot prioriteta nek dobiček oz. neki finančni ali dobičkonosni interesi. Takrat mislim, da bomo začeli izgubljati najprej kot posamezniki in potem kot družba, kot celota.

Voditeljica: V ustavi imamo zapisano, da smo socialna država. Kako vi gledate na te stereotipe v javnem sektorju?

Ilešič Čujovič: Ja, drži. Težava pri stereotipih je v tem, da se po mojem povprečen Slovenec ne zaveda, kdo vse je javni uslužbenec. Torej, kdo vse je del javnega sektorja. Verjetno si večinoma stereotipno predstavljajo zaposlene na upravnih enotah, zaposlene na ministrstvih in več kot to ne razmišljajo, kaj vse pomeni javni sektor. Javni sektor pa je pravzaprav vse, kar vidimo okrog nas, vrtci, šole, srednje šole, univerza, kultura v celoti, operni pevci, igralci. Če samo nekaj poklicev naštejem, da ne nadaljujem še s policijo in vojsko, ki zagotavljata varnost v naši državi. In seveda lahko zaključim z znanstveniki, raziskovalci in nenazadnje seveda vsemi zaposlenimi v zdravstvu, vključno z zdravniki in ostalimi zdravstvenimi delavci in zaposlenimi v socialnem varstvu, na centrih za socialno delo, v domovih starejših občanov, v posebnih socialno-varstvenih zavodih in ostalih socialnih zavodih, tako da kamor koli se pravzaprav okrog sebe obrneš, zagledaš javnega uslužbenca, pa se morda temu niti ne posveča toliko pozornosti. In ko pripelješ otroka, na primer v vrtec in ga sprejmeta vzgojiteljica in pomočnica vzgojiteljice, seveda ne pomisliš najprej, da sta to javni uslužbenki, pa sta. Verjetno takrat ne pomisliš, da nič ne delata in da imata varno zaposlitev in visoko plačo. Tudi to ne bi bilo resnično, ker plače seveda variirajo in bi bil ta stereotip zelo napačen. Tako da, bolj bi se morali zavedati, da dokler je raven storitev javnega servisa, javnega sektorja na visoki ravni, kar jaz verjamem, da je v tem trenutku, se tega ne zavedamo toliko. Če pa bi in upam, da nikdar ne bo prišlo do tega, to začeli izgubljati, takrat bi se zavedali, samo takrat bi bilo prepozno. Raven storitev in raven javnega sektorja je treba obdržati, sicer je ta proces razpadanja, če bi celo tako katastrofično rekla, se bojim, da irreverzibilen, torej se ne da iti nazaj.

Voditeljica: Marsikateri tujec, ki pride k nam, je presenečen, hitro dobi recimo na upravni enoti neke dokumente ali pa zdravstvena oskrba, ne bankrotira, če gre k zdravniku. To so vse te prednosti, o katerih se zelo malo govori.

Ilešič Čujovič: Drži. Saj pravim, nekaj, kar vzameš kot samoumevno, je nekaj, s čimer si se rodil. Toda navsezadnje brezplačen porod v drugih državah ni nekaj samoumevnega. Ampak mi smo se s tem rodili in živimo v tej državi praviloma že dlje časa in zato jemlješ to kot nekaj samoumevnega in temu ne posvečaš preveč pozornosti. Ampak v resnici mi, ki se ukvarjamo s sistemom, vemo, da to ni samoumevno. Tisti, ki bolje poznajo primerjalne sisteme v tujini, vedo, da je to nekaj, kar si je treba priboriti in seveda se tudi zelo boriti, da se ohrani. In to delamo.

Voditeljica: Po več letih je ta vlada uspela prenoviti plačni sektor, plačni sistem, še nekateri drugi zakonski akti se sedaj spreminjajo. Za vas lahko rečemo, da ste otrok javnega sektorja. Je bil namen te plačne prenove tudi, da privabite najmlajše ljudi v sistem javnega sektorja?

Ramšak Pešec: Zagotovo je bilo tudi namen, da privabimo oz. da izboljšamo plačne pogoje tudi za novo zaposlene. Pa ni bil to edini. Namreč tudi že zaposleni javni uslužbenci je prav, da smo pogledali njihovo nagrajevanje in izboljšali sistem tudi za že zaposlene. Seveda je pa tudi javni sektor konkurent na trgu delovne sile, kjer je ta trg zelo zahteven. Delodajalci zelo konkurirajo in enostavno, ne samo zaradi tega dejstva, ampak že več let prej se je pokazala tudi ta potreba, da naredimo javni sektor tudi skozi plačni sistem bolj privlačen za nove zaposlitve, tako da ta prenova plačnega sistema je bila potrebna. Potrebno ga je bilo pogledati v smislu, v katerih delih je potrebna izboljšava, pa morda ne samo, kar se tiče višine plač, ampak tudi možnosti dodatnega nagrajevanja prizadevnih, kompetentnih, uspešnih delavcev. Možnost nagrajevanja morda tudi bolj na začetku kariere mlajših sodelavcev, ki jih rabimo v javnem sektorju. Namreč omejevanje zaposlovanja v javnem sektorju, ki je bilo takrat potrebno in se je izkazalo, da je potrebno. Seveda je vprašanje, ali je bilo to omejevanje časovno predolgo morda, ampak v tistem času se je pokazalo, da je bila javnofinančna situacija takšna, da je bilo potrebno omejiti število ljudi v javnem sektorju, je povzročilo neko kadrovsko vrzel in tudi neko starostno strukturo, ki jo bo treba spremeniti in izboljšati tudi z mlajšimi sodelavci, tudi z nekimi novimi pogledi na delo, z novo energijo, ki jo mlajši sodelavci dajejo. Seveda je pa za mlajše sodelavce potrebno vzpostaviti ustrezne pogoje, da pridejo v javni sektor, tako da s tega stališča plačni sistem daje večje možnosti kot morda prejšnji sistem, da nagrajuje tudi mlajše, tiste, ki so na začetku kariere, in mislimo, da je tudi eden izmed dejavnikov oziroma smo prepričani, da bomo privabili tudi nov kader v javni sektor in obdržali tega, ki je v sistemu.

Voditeljica: Vi zastopate poklice, ki jih primanjkuje v Sloveniji. Je ta prenova takšna, da bo privabila mlade ljudi, da vstopijo v te poklice, ki skrbijo za najbolj ranljive skupine?

Ilešič Čujovič: Jaz verjamem, da ja. Jaz upam, da temu bo tako. Zagotovo pa bo poleg tega, da smo odpravljali nesorazmerja in določali nove plačne razrede, v novi plačni lestvici, hkrati treba uporabiti tudi institute, ki smo jih določili v Zakonu o skupnih temeljih sistema plač v javnem sektorju. Gre za nekaj pomembnih institutov in to je možnost določitve višjega plačnega razreda bodisi že ob zaposlitvi ali pa tudi že obstoječim delavcem, ker enako pomembno kot pridobivati nov kader, je zadržati ali pa doseči večje zadovoljstvo med že obstoječimi delavci, ki so pravzaprav hrbtenica sistema, ki ga imamo danes. Tako da to je en institut. Drug institut je možnost spregleda izobrazbe pri nereguliranih poklicih, torej tam, kjer ni z zakonom določeno, kakšne morajo biti kompetence posameznega poklica, in veliko si obetamo tudi od novega sistema delovne uspešnosti, ki bo sicer zaživel šele v letu 2026, ampak je nekaj nastavkov, ki omogočajo večjo motiviranost zaposlenih, na drugi strani pri tem prvem institutu po 22. členu zakona pa tudi večjo fleksibilnost plač. Kar bo potrebno in zaenkrat so tukaj mogoče še nekoliko porodne težave, poporodne težave, je, da se bodo vsi delodajalci v javnem sektorju zavedali, da ti instituti tu so zato, da se jih uporabi, ne zato, da se jih ne uporabi. K temu spodbujamo tudi na sindikalni strani seveda zelo, zato ker sicer noben sistem sam po sebi ne more zaživeti, če se ne uporablja. Ostanejo mrtve črke na papirju in tega si res ne želimo. Nismo dve leti zares garali za to, da bi zdaj gledali institute in jih ne uporabljali.

Voditeljica: Imate že kaj odzivov med članstvom? Kako pa ta institut, da nihče ni pod minimalno plačo? Kako so ga sprejeli?

Ilešič Čujovič: Odzivi med članstvom so zelo raznoliki. Kar nekaj zaposlenih je, to moram iskreno priznati, nezadovoljnih z novim sistemom. Delno je to odraz tudi tega, da se bo razlika med staro in novo plačo izplačevala v šestih obrokih in da je bil sedaj s 1. 1. 2025 izplačan šele prvi obrok v višini 100 evrov bruto. Nekateri zaposleni v dejavnosti zdravstva in socialnega varstva v bivši plačni skupini J so ta znesek prejemali zaradi preteklih pogajanj že v obliki posebnega vladnega projekta že prej in tukaj je nekaj nezadovoljstva. Ne vidijo te stimulativnosti novega sistema še sedaj. Hkrati pa to, kar sem omenila, delodajalci še ne izkoriščajo teh novih institutov. In seveda, potem je težko ali pa razumem zaposlene, da ne vidijo še teh prednosti novega sistema, ampak verjamem, da v kratkem, računam, da v prvem polletju letošnjega leta, bi se moralo to nezadovoljstvo nekako umiriti in upam, da bodo tudi izvajalci res začeli uporabljati institute.

Voditeljica: Manevrskega prostora je torej še nekaj, ampak šest izplačil v šestih tranšah je pa zaradi tega, da smo javnofinančno vzdržni, kajne?

Ramšak Pešec: Ja, dejstvo je, da tolikšnega dejansko dviga plač vsaj do zdaj, pa ne samo novega sistema, ki je bil uveljavljen leta 2008, tudi v prejšnjih plačnih sistemih javnega sektorja ni bilo. In seveda je bilo potrebno ta znesek tudi razdeliti in ga postopno uvesti na način, da bo javno finančno vzdržen. Jaz bi morda, kar se tiče odzivov na uvedbo novega plačnega sistema rekla še to, da seveda smo vsi skupaj neučakani in tudi javni uslužbenci so neučakani, ampak do sedaj, še v začetku februarja je bilo veliko oziroma so bile pretežno aktivnosti delodajalcev vpletene v to, da se je prevedlo zaposlene iz starega v nov plačni sistem, tako da jaz verjamem, da v tem naslednjem koraku bo pa uporaba prišla na vrsto teh novih plačnih institutov in da v bistvu smo realizirali šele prvi del nove plačne reforme in da ta drugi del, vse skupaj pa da bo pokazalo dejansko tiste rezultate, ki smo jih želeli. Ja, glede javnofinančne vzdržnosti. Seveda smo bili ves čas pogajanj pod budnim očesom in tudi še sedaj tako domačih kot tudi evropskih organov, ki skrbijo za fiskalno politiko. Tudi še včeraj smo predstavnikom Evropske komisije morali pojasnjevati oziroma so želeli od nas dobiti podatke ravno te dolgoročne javnofinančne vzdržnosti in smo uspeli predstaviti sistem, za katerega so tudi oni potrdili, da je javnofinančno vzdržen. Tako da jaz res javnim uslužbencem nekako predlagam oziroma jim svetujem, da počakamo vsaj še nekaj mesecev, da se bo dejansko nov sistem uvedel v celoti z vsemi instituti, ki so na razpolago. Tako kot sindikalna stran tudi pri nas na ministrstvu za javno upravo nekako stimuliramo posamezna ministrstva, da svojim javnim zavodom dajejo navodila, da jih usmerjajo, in pojasnjujejo, kakšne možnosti so za ustrezno nagrajevanje javnih uslužbencev. Verjamem pa, da so bila pričakovanja med tako množico javnih uslužbencev različna in da vseh pričakovanj nismo in nikoli ne bi mogli zadovoljiti. Na nas je, da se odzivamo na vprašanja, da se odzivamo tudi na nezadovoljstvo in kritike, da poskušamo pojasniti, da poskušamo tudi razumeti, da si priznamo, da morda v tako kompleksnem sistemu, ki zajema tako veliko število ljudi, ki zajema skoraj 5000 različnih delovnih mest, 1500 različnih delodajalcev, da je popolnoma možno, da morda kakšna rešitev tudi ni optimalna, da je prišlo tudi do kakšne napake. Ampak ravno zaradi tega smo se skupaj s sindikati dogovorili, ustanovili posebno delovno skupino, ki spremlja implementacijo plačnega sistema v praksi, ki tudi je seznanjena z vsemi temi vprašanji, ki jih dobimo, jih analizira in da bomo skupaj ugotovili, ali je morda prišlo res kje na sistemski ravni do kakšne neustrezne zakonske rešitve, da bomo se o njej pogovorili in našli rešitev. 

Voditeljica: Omenila sem že, da sta obe sodelovali pri pogajanjih, vsaka na svoji strani mize, a sta si po dveh letih pogajanj kaj oddahnili, ko so bila zaključena in ste podpisali kolektivno pogodbo? Mogoče državna sekretarka najprej.

Ramšak Pešec: Seveda sem se veselila. Dejansko sem bila vesela, da smo zadevo pripeljali do konca, ampak ne zato, da bi si pripenjala kakršnekoli zasluge za kako veliko zadevo, ampak predvsem zato, ker mislim, da so si javni uslužbenci zaslužili, da smo se dogovorili. In najslabše bi bilo, da se ne bi nič dogovorili in da bi pustili stanje, kakršno je. Sem pa ves čas pogajanj tudi sindikalno stran, večkrat opozorila, da dajmo se držati neke časovnice, ker to, kar smo se dogovorili, je treba spraviti v življenje. In dejansko je potem po koncu pogajanj, ki smo jih nekako zaključili novembra, težišče dela potem padlo na naše ministrstvo, da smo pripravili vse te kopice dokumentov, aneksov, različnih prilog, predvsem pa, da smo poskrbeli, da se ta nov sistem tudi implementira v prakso. Ker namreč delodajalci na pogajanjih neposredno niso sodelovali, spremljali so, tudi intenzivna pogajanja so bila, tako da zelo podrobno niti ni bilo možno med pogajanji obveščati vseh delodajalcev, kaj se dogaja, tako da so bili takrat prvič po koncu pogajanj seznanjeni z dogovorjenim. Treba je bilo jih usposobiti. Treba je bilo pripraviti različne vzorce. Treba je bilo pripraviti informacijski sistem, za katerega se je ministrstvo zavezalo, da ga bo naredilo za prevedbo plač v nov sistem. Zavedati se je bilo treba, da je padlo potem tudi novoletno obdobje v ravno v fazi implementacije, tako da kot sem bila vesela, v naslednjem trenutku sem tudi javno povedala, da se zavedam, da je pred nami še zelo veliko dela. Ampak tudi to smo z dobro voljo, tudi s sodelovanjem s sindikati. Jaz moram reči, da pogajanja so bila naporna, bila so pa izredno korektna in konstruktivna in brez odgovornosti na obeh straneh, ne samo na vladni, tudi na sindikalni, tega nikoli ne bi pripeljali do konca. Smo se večkrat tudi razšli, smo si večkrat tudi na glas kaj rekli, ampak nikoli si nismo zaloputnili vrat in mislim, da je to tisto, kar šteje na koncu, kar pripelje do rezultata.

Voditeljica: Torej spoštljiva komunikacija. Kakšne so bile vaše prve misli ob dogovoru?

Ilešič Čujovič: Ja, jaz sem se podobno kot državna sekretarka zavedala, da ena etapa je za nami, ampak prihajajo nove etape in z naše strani pojasnjevanje našim članicam in članom, kaj smo dosegli, in razlaganje za tiste točke, ki jih nismo dosegli, pa smo se zanje dogovorili, da jih bomo pogajali naprej. Vseeno moram povedati, da zame ali pa za naš sindikat je bil to tretji krog pogajanj v treh letih. Po napornem obdobju epidemije koronavirusa smo se potem takoj v letu 2021 začeli pogajati, nadaljevali pogajanja v 2022 in potem prešli v pogajanja 2023 in 2024. Tako da jaz imam občutek, da se stalno pogajamo. Tako da toliko bolj sem bila vesela, da smo zaključili ta del pogajanj in to reformo, ki se je tudi meni zdela nujno potrebna. En čas, lansko leto v jeseni, sem nekajkrat celo imela občutek, da morda pa do konca teh pogajanj ne bomo prišli uspešno in da se bodo morda zaključila pogajanja brez podpisa dokumentov. Res je bilo veliko orehov za streti, tako da ni samoumevno. Se mi zdi to pomembno povedati vašim gledalkam in gledalcem in poslušalkam, poslušalcem, da ni bilo samoumevno, da smo prišli do tega dogovora in da je bilo potrebno kar nekaj modrosti tako na vladni kot na sindikalni strani, da smo prišli do dogovora. Vsak dogovor po mojem prepričanju je boljši kot razhod brez dogovora. In seveda je bilo treba na koncu sklepati kompromise. Ampak verjamem, da smo šli korak v pravo smer in seveda potem gremo naslednje korake tudi skupaj.

Voditeljica: Torej ste tudi vi zadovoljni, kako ste se pogajali z vlado, in z odnosom?

Ilešič Čujovič: Odnos vlade je bil vseskozi korekten. To moram reči. Nismo se vedno strinjali, zagotovo ne. In tako kot je povedala državna sekretarka, se strinjam. Včasih so bili kakšni povišani toni, kakšni grdi pogledi drug na drugega, ampak nikdar pa nespoštljive komunikacije. In poskušali smo se ves čas pogajati z argumenti. Jaz verjamem v to, da je to edini pravi način pogajanj. Seveda pa lahko na isto zadevo gledamo z dveh povsem različnih zornih kotov, kar se je kar nekajkrat zgodilo.

Voditeljica: Danes zvenita ubrano, tako da čestitke za dosežen dogovor. Nekaj smo že omenili. Sistem je zaživel v praksi. Pojavljajo se verjetno kakšne napake, kot smo že rekli. Kako jih rešujete? Vi ste del ene skupine tudi, ki je na ministrstvu za javno upravo. Kaj sploh počne pravzaprav ta skupina? Mogoče, če predstavite.

Ilešič Čujovič: Ob zaključku pogajanj smo se dogovorili skupaj z vladno stranjo, da se formira tako imenovana implementacijska skupina, ki bo spremljala način implementacije vseh teh dokumentov, torej Zakona o skupnih temeljih sistema plač v javnem sektorju in vseh ostalih dokumentov. In skupina je zares začela z delom, zaživela in delujemo na izjemno visoki strokovni ravni, bi lahko rekla, tako predstavniki vladne strani, ki so po večini zaposleni na ministrstvu za javno upravo, pa se občasno pridružijo tudi z drugih resornih ministrstev, kadar imamo kakšno tako vprašanje, in na drugi strani, na sindikalni strani imamo tudi predstavnike. Tako da poskušamo tista vprašanja, ki se izpostavijo bodisi na vladni strani bodisi na sindikalni strani, skupaj predebatirali in če le gre, uskladiti stališča glede teh vprašanj. Jaz verjamem, da informacija, ki pride na ta način, torej usklajena med vladno in sindikalno stranjo, je zagotovo bistveno boljša in bistveno kvalitetnejša informacija. Napak bi bilo, da vlada na eni strani, sindikati na drugi strani nekaj čisto kontra razlagamo za isto določbo, na primer zakona, ker bi s tem v resnici samo povzročali neke anomalije ali pa nedoslednosti v sistemu in izvajalci, delodajalci ali pa delavci ne bi več vedeli, komu naj bolj verjamejo. Tega si nismo želeli. Novosti v sistemu je že tako zelo veliko, da res ne potrebujemo še tega. Skupina bo z delom nadaljevala. Kar nekaj je vprašanj. Poskušamo jih detektirati na različnih nivojih in kar za nekaj vprašanj smo se lahko tudi uskladili.

Voditeljica: Je pa to povsem strokovna skupina, ne?

Ramšak Pešec: Ja. Ta skupina deluje predvsem strokovno, kot je kolegica že omenila. Gre za skupno vladno, delodajalsko, sindikalno tolmačenje posameznih odprtih vprašanj oziroma ne morda čisto jasnih določb oziroma odgovore na vprašanja, ki se pojavljajo pri delodajalcih ali tudi pred javnimi uslužbenci. Bo pa ta skupina tudi obdobno poročala vladni pogajalski skupini, sindikalno-vladni, in tam bo morda tudi kakšno vprašanje, ki ga bo potrebno tudi interesno dogovoriti. Tako da ta skupina je strokovna, ni interesna. Na pogajanjih, ki jih bomo, jaz pričakujem konec meseca ali v začetku naslednjega meseca ponovno odprli, bomo pa obravnavali tudi posamezna vprašanja, ki zahtevajo interesno rešitev oziroma dogovor o potrebnih rešitvah.

Voditeljica: Tudi mi smo zbrali prek družbenih omrežij nekaj vprašanj iz javnega sektorja in bi prosila za odgovore, in sicer, nekaj vprašanj smo prejeli na temo napredovanj. Tisti, ki naj bi menda v tem letu po prejšnjem sistemu napredoval za dva plačna razreda, bo samo za enega in kot trdijo, namesto osem odstotkov višje plače prejel zgolj tri odstotke več.

Ramšak Pešec: To vprašanje oziroma ta očitek morda o neustrezni rešitvi se je že pojavljal. Je že prišel tudi do našega ministrstva, vendar dejstvo je, da sistem napredovanja je v novem sistemu prenovljen, ampak ni samo sistem napredovanja prenovljen, tako da ni možno gledati samo enega delčka novega plačnega sistema. Dejstvo je, da v novem plačnem sistemu so vrednosti plačnih razredov višje, so tudi višje uvrstitve oz. vrednotenja posameznih delovnih mest, tako da je potrebno sistem napredovanja šteti kot en delček celega sistema in ga kot takšnega tudi gledati. V prejšnjem plačnem sistemu so bile vrednosti plačnih razredov nižje, so bila nižja vrednotenja. To je sedaj vse zvišano in pa tudi malo drugačen sistem napredovanja. Res je, da v novem sistemu je razmik med plačnimi razredi 3 % in ne 4 %. Je pa sistem napredovanja časovno tudi drugače opredeljen, predvsem mlajši zaposleni v nižjih plačnih razredih lahko napredujejo prej, tudi po dveh letih. Tudi možno je še vedno pospešeno napredovanje, se pravi izredno za dva plačna razreda, ne samo za enega. Tudi v starem sistemu je v bistvu napredovanje za dva plačna razreda bilo izjema in ne pravilo ob zelo visokih ocenah, ki so pa postale več ali manj realnost, zato je tudi podlaga za napredovanje to ocenjevanje delovne uspešnosti bilo ukinjeno oziroma umaknjeno. Tako da na to vprašanje je možno pojasnilo samo v kontekstu cele reforme plačnega sistema. Cela reforma pa prav gotovo ne gre v škodo zaposlenim.

Voditeljica: Bi k temu kaj dodali?

Ilešič Čujovič: Ne. Drži, da je tak sistem, kot vprašanje pojasnjuje. Dejstvo je, da smo v sistem, ki smo ga gradili skupaj z vladno stranjo, morali vnesti neke določene prehodne režime. Eden od teh je je tudi ta, kaj se zgodi v letošnjem letu. Hkrati pa seveda drži tudi, da ocene niso več potrebne za napredovanje, kar je v veliko olajšanje tako ocenjevalcem kot tudi javnim uslužbencem. Tako da še nekaj drugih elementov je, ki enostavno drugače predstavljajo ta nov sistem in popolnega enačaja med prejšnjim sistemom in novim sistemom ni mogoče narediti.

Voditeljica: Prejeli smo tudi vprašanja glede bolniške odsotnosti, da se javnim uslužbencem, ki so več kot tri mesece bolniško odsotni, povišanje ni poznalo, saj so prejeli enako plačo. Zakaj?

Ramšak Pešec: To vprašanje se nanaša na vprašanje ne plač, ampak nadomestil plač in osnov, ki se vzamejo za nadomestilo plače. Sedaj v bistvu po novem plačnem sistemu izplačana ena plača. To je bila plača za januar in vsi, ki so v januarju bili odsotni in prejemali nadomestilo plače, so ga dobili na podlagi osnovne plače starega plačnega sistema. Te osnove so pa različne. Če je šla plača za dopust, na primer, je bil to pretekli mesec. Se pravi, je bila plača za december, nadomestilo bolniške odsotnosti ki ga plačuje delodajalec prvih 30 delovnih dni, je osnova povprečje prejšnjih treh mesecev. Bolniške, ki so dolgotrajne, ali nega za vzdrževane družinske člane je osnova celo plača preteklega leta. Tako da v teh izplačilih v novem plačnem sistemu nadomestil se prav gotovo nove plače še zaradi sistema obračuna nadomestil niso mogle poznati.

Voditeljica: To bo verjetno za obe vprašanje, ker sta že nekaj nakazovali rešitve. Ob zaposlitvi v javni sektor leta 2019 me je delodajalec kljub 14 letom delovne dobe uvrstil v izhodiščni razred. S tem smo javni uslužbenci glede na naše kolege, ki delajo že od vsega začetka v javnem sektorju, v neenakopravnem položaju. Ali nov plačni sistem rešuje to? Mogoče vi? Spregled izobrazbe verjetno, ne?

Ilešič Čujovič: Tukaj gre za pravzaprav institut 22. člena Zakona o skupnih temeljih sistema plač, ki omogoča določitev višje plače že zaposlenim. Sicer so določene tudi kvote, koliko zaposlenih, 10 % zaposlenih v letu je lahko deležnih tega instituta, ampak to je tipičen primer za to, da lahko delodajalec uporabi 22. člen. Potrebno je sicer soglasje pristojnega ministrstva, ampak z obrazloženo vlogo na to temo jaz mislim, da ne bi smelo biti težav pri izdajanju soglasij. S takšnimi novostmi tudi lahko iz zasebnega sektorja lažje prehajajo v javni sektor.

Ramšak Pešec: Tako. V bistvu je določitev višje plače tipični instrument, ki ga ima na voljo delodajalec pri upravljanju s svojimi zaposlenimi, pri kadrovanju, pri upravljanju s plačami. Če se delodajalec v konkretnem primeru, verjetno je šlo še za star plačni sistem ali pa novi, ni odločil, da bi posameznega novo zaposlenega uvrstil v višji plačni razred, kot je osnoven, in upošteval neke že pridobljene izkušnje na prejšnjih delovnih mestih, je zelo verjetno šlo za neke delovne izkušnje, za katere je delodajalec presodil, da niso primerljive s tem delom, ki ga bo sedaj opravljal. V novem sistemu je ta možnost v bistvu priznavanja in uvrščanja v višje plačne razrede za novo zaposlene še bolj olajšana kot v starem, ker lahko delodajalec glede na delovne izkušnje, ki jih ima posameznik iz zasebnega sektorja in če bi bil v javnem sektorju, da bi s tovrstnimi delovnimi izkušnjami že napredoval, celo brez soglasja uvrsti v tak plačni razred, kot bi ga s tem delom dosegel v javnem sektorju. Lahko ga uvrsti v najvišji možni plačni razred, če ima dovolj delovnih izkušenj. Drugi korak uvedbe v prakso novega plačnega sistema so v bistvu instrumenti, ki jih ima na voljo delodajalec, da dejansko tudi skozi določanje plač upravlja s kadri. To seveda od delodajalcev pomeni, da bodo morali narediti in voditi pregled ne samo števila zaposlenih, ampak tudi njihovih plač in s posameznimi instrumenti bodo lahko tudi ustrezno uravnavali plače, nagrajevali, primerjali, seveda tudi novo zaposlenega umestili v nek svoj plačni model in plačne odnose, ki jih imajo že med zaposlenimi. Tako da daje možnost delodajalcem. Jaz upam, da bodo delodajalci to možnost izkoristili. Do sedaj je bila kritika prejšnjega sistema tudi v tej smeri, da je preveč tog, preveč formalističen, da delodajalcem ne daje veliko manevrskega prostora, da bi s tem sistemom upravljali, sedaj delodajalci to možnost imajo. Mi jih bomo, kot smo rekli, tudi sindikalna stran opozarjali na te nove institute, jih bomo z njimi soočali. Zdaj, ko smo prevedbo končali, še več energije in pozornosti usmerili v ta del in upam, da delodajalci bodo te instrumente uporabljali. Je pa seveda res, da istočasno z možnostjo, ki jo imajo delodajalci, delodajalci s tem prevzemajo tudi odgovornost in jaz upam, da so jo pripravljeni prevzeti.

Voditeljica: Jaz sem že omenila sama spregled izobrazbe. Prejšnji sistem je bil naravnan tako, izobrazba ali pa nič. Kaj pa zdaj ta institut spregleda izobrazbe, če ga prav imenujem, prinaša?

Ilešič Čujovič: Ta institut prinaša v bistvu pomen delovnih izkušenj oziroma dejansko nekih pridobljenih izkušenj z delom poleg izobrazbe, torej ni zgolj izobrazba tista, ki pomeni kompetentno delo, ampak lahko pomeni kompetentno delo tudi delo na podlagi že pridobljenih izkušenj. To je seveda večinoma rezervirano tudi v tem plačnem zakonu za neregulirane poklice. Tam, kjer je poklic zdravnik, na primer, seveda ne moreš z izkušnjami nadomestiti izobrazbe. Nikakor ne. To ni bilo nikoli mišljeno. Ampak če dam primer pomočnika kuharja, ki je leta in leta, deset, 20, 30 let delal v javnem sektorju in se z delom priučil poklica kuharja, takemu lahko delodajalec ponudi kot institut spregleda izobrazbe delovno mesto kuharja. So posebni pogoji. Eni pogoji veljajo za že zaposlene v javnem sektorju, drugi pogoji veljajo za tiste, ki se bodo na novo zaposlovali najprej za določen čas. Če ni drugega, ki se prijavi na razpis, pa ima pogoje za zaposlitev tudi izobrazbene, potem pa v končni fazi lahko tudi zaposlitev za nedoločen čas. Torej je kar omejen institut z različnimi pogoji, ker si ne želimo seveda nižanja kakovosti storitev, nikakor ne. Ampak dejstvo pa je, da v javnem sektorju je veliko kompetentnih ljudi, ki pa ne izpolnjujejo pogoja izobrazbe, pa bi lahko na podlagi ustrezne pogodbe o zaposlitvi opravljali svoje delo. In hkrati na drugi strani, kot ste že omenili, deficitarnost, torej poklici nekateri so izjemno deficitarni tudi bivše plačne skupine J, zdaj devetke, kot ji rečemo, posamezne dejavnosti. Ta spremljajoča delovna mesta so velikokrat bolje plačana v zasebnem sektorju in tukaj je nekaj prostora, torej spregled izobrazbe oziroma 22. člen za določitev višje plače. To je in tukaj se strinjam odgovornost delodajalcev zagotovo, hkrati pa je treba reči tudi, da so potrebna za to finančna sredstva. V nekaterih delih javnega sektorja je morda to bolj enostavno, v nekaterih delih javnega sektorja, kjer ni direktnega neposrednega financiranja, pa malo težje. Tudi na to temo smo se pogovarjali z vladno stranjo in sklenili dogovor, da bo vlada zagotovila ustrezna finančna sredstva tudi za uveljavljanje tega plačnega sistema. Drugače ne gre.

Voditeljica: Še zadnje vprašanje. Bilo je zelo kompleksno, zdaj smo ga pa skrajšali in upam, da pravilno povzeli. Nekateri uslužbenci so bili umeščeni v končne plačne razrede in ne bodo mogli več napredovati. Tisti, ki pa so v stari lestvici dosegli končni plačni razred, pa so bili prevedeni tudi za 3 plačne razrede višje, kot je končni plačni razred v novi lestvici. So zdaj javni uslužbenci v neenakopravnih položajih?

Ramšak Pešec: Ne. Jaz tega ne bi morala reči. Je pa tudi to ena izmed kritik ali vprašanj v zvezi z novim plačnim sistemom. Kaj bo s tistimi, ki so v končnih plačnih razredih? Dejstvo je, da na delovnem mestu imamo možnost napredovanja deset plačnih razredov. To ni tako malo. To je v končni fazi kar dosti, kar pomeni, da posameznik, ki opravlja delo na svojem delovnem mestu, postopno pridobiva zdaj v tem sistemu 30 % višjo plačo, v starem sistemu celo 40. Ravno zato smo v novem sistemu možnost doseganja končnih in višjih plačnih razredov časovno tudi raztegnili. Ob praksi ocenjevanja, kot je bilo starem sistemu, so dejansko posamezniki zelo pogosto te končne razrede dosegali že po 15 letih delovne dobe. Seveda se sedaj pri njih postavlja vprašanje, kaj bo sedaj z menoj do konca. Jaz sem prepričana, da ta posameznik, v kolikor ne bi bil ocenjen na način, da bi lahko napredoval tako zelo hitro, bi tudi izkazoval nezadovoljstvo. Dobil sem nizko oceno, sedaj ne morem napredovati. Se pravi, da je to nekako malo presenetljiv odziv. Zdaj sem pa te končne plačne razrede relativno hitro dosegel. Kaj bo sedaj z mojo plačo? To je pač rezultat sistema in možnosti, ki jih delodajalec je imel, zaposleni so pa tudi pričakovali, da bodo maksimalne možnosti za napredovanje dosegali, in so dosegali končne razrede. To samo pomeni, da posameznik neko višjo plačo in končno plačo, ki bi jo morda dosegel kasneje, je dosegel že prej. Posamezniki so ob prevedbi šli tudi čez končne plačne razrede. To je sistem prevedbe prinesel iz starega v nov sistem. Namreč, v kolikor te možnosti ne bi bilo in glede na to, da se je vrednost višanja razredov, vsak naslednji plačni razred bil v plačnem sistemu starega sistema višji za 4 %, v novem pa za tri. V primeru, da v višjih razredih ne bi dopustili možnosti, da bi prevedba pomenila tudi plačne razrede čez deset, bi lahko v posameznih primerih posamezniki nominalno imeli nižjo plačo kot v starem sistemu in je to ena izvedba tako imenovanih varovanih plač, ki smo jih v sistemu 2008 tudi poznali. Enostavno smo morali zagotoviti zaradi tega nižjega odstotka rasti plač ob višjih razredih, da je možno, da je teh razredov tudi več, da smo ohranili nivo nominalnih plač, da ne bi nominalno ob istih plačnih razredih posamezniki imeli nižje plače.

Voditeljica: Ste pa že omenili, tudi variabilni del pride. Torej si lahko tudi posameznik z dobrim delom ta del zasluži.

Ilešič Čujovič: Drži, je pa res, to zadnje vaše vprašanje povzroča kar nekaj nezadovoljstva. Iščemo rešitve, ker dejstvo je, da smo s tem poskušali nekako nadomestiti institut varovane plače, hkrati pa smo imeli oboji tako na vladni kot sindikalni strani v vidu, da se plača nikomur ne bo znižala. Temu na žalost ni tako. Iz raznoraznih razlogov, bodisi so bila kakšna delovna mesta črtana bodisi je prišlo do kakšne druge težave, niti ne napake, ampak dejansko težave v sistemu, in to tudi v okviru implementacijske skupine rešujemo oziroma iščemo možne rešitve in gotovo bomo to odprli tudi v okviru pogajanj, ki jih bomo imeli konec meseca.

Voditeljica: Skratka, izzivov za prihodnost ne bo zmanjkalo.

Ilešič Čujovič: Ne, ni se bati, da bi nam bilo dolgčas.

Voditeljica: Jaz sem vama hvaležna, da sta bili z nami. Mesec marec je mesec žensk. Praznujemo dva praznika in želim vama, da sta še naprej tako uspešni, pokončni in sposobni ženski v tem poklicu. Tako da čestitke tudi ob tem prazniku.

Ramšak Pešec: Hvala lepa.

Ilešič Čujovič: Hvala enako.

Voditeljica: Vam pa hvala, da ste nas spremljali. Našo epizodo spremljajte na vseh platformah, kjer so podkasti, in pa na našem vladnem YouTube kanalu. Hvala in nasvidenje.

[ENGLISH VERSION]

GOVSI Government Podcast.

Host Petra Bezjak Cirman: Greetings, dear viewers and listeners. Welcome to the 20th GOVSI Government Podcast, produced by the Government Communication Office. My name is Petra Bezjak Cirman. Today we invited two very interesting guests, as we will be discussing public services, the importance of the public sector and the recently adopted reform of the salary system. State Secretary at the Ministry of Public Administration, Mojca Ramšak Pešec, welcome.

Guest Mojca Ramšak Pešec: Greetings.

Host: And President of the Trade Union of Health and Social Security, Irena Ilešič Čujovič, welcome.

Guest Irena Ilešič Čujovič: Greetings.

Host: You both cooperated intensely in negotiations and the reform of the salary system, Mrs. Ramšak with the government and Mrs. Ilešič on the Union's side. You are also both experts on our public sector. Mrs. Ramšak, you have worked in the public sector for 30 years and have held many leading positions. Mrs. Ilešič, in addition to heading the Union, you are also Vice-President of the Confederation of Public Sector Trade Unions. First, a more personal question for both. How did you choose your profession or rather calling to work in and for the public sector? Go ahead.

Ramšak Pešec: First, thank you for the invitation. I actually have a law degree, but I think a legal profession wouldn't give me the satisfaction that working in the public sector does. As I was getting to know myself during my nearly 32-year career, I found that what is most meaningful to me in my work is doing what I think is right, doing good for the people, working on large systems and being able to improve anything. I am certain that no private occupation would give me the opportunity to do such things. It is very fulfilling to be able to make big systemic changes and do good for the people. That guides me in my work more than anything else. I don't think that any other profession or work would give me that kind of fulfilment and satisfaction.

Host: Profession or calling?

Ilešič Čujovič: Interestingly, I could repeat much of what the State Secretary said. Like Mrs. Ramšak Pešec, I am also a jurist, but I feel that what I have been doing for nearly a decade and a half really is my calling. I feel truly fortunate to be able to simultaneously change life in our society for the better, cooperate constructively in systemic changes that pursue positive objectives, and at the same time help the most vulnerable group, the workers in the two sectors, covered by our Union, healthcare and social security.

Host: The public sector is extremely important. They say it's the heart or backbone of our society, our democracy. It employs 188,000 people. It sounds enormous, but what all does it encompass?

Ramšak Pešec: The public sector, as defined in Slovenia, encompasses all public services in the Republic of Slovenia at both the state and local levels. It includes all entities, bodies within the state and municipal administration, judicial authorities, and all other independent state bodies, as well as all service providers established by the Republic of Slovenia or individual municipalities that provide public services. I think that the definition of the public sector is very broad as are the definitions within the public sector. That is why the number of employees in the public sector looks enormous, but we have one of the broader definitions of the public sector in Europe. There is no common definition of the public sector in Europe, or in Slovenia, I'm afraid. For example, looking at the Statistical Office's data and definition of the public sector, it is mostly defined by the shares of public funding per entity. So some bodies can even be excluded from this definition if they have a lot of market revenues, while some are even included in this definition. With the scope of the sectors and the number of bodies included, it really is the largest employer in the Republic of Slovenia. Even looking just at the narrower administrative part, it really is a large employer, a huge number of people, and a large system that we have the opportunity and the responsibility to manage.

Host: There are about 20,000 people in state administration, right?

Ramšak Pešec: Looking just at the civilian part of state administration, yes, but if we include the military and the police, there are over 35,000.

Host: Mrs. Ilešič Čujovič, you are a representative of the union of professions that care for the most vulnerable people. What is your mission and of your employees in the public sector?

Ilešič Čujovič: They cover two extremely important social subsystems. Without them, there is no basic healthcare, there is no social sense that can be found across the field of social security. Without these two social subsystems, alongside the other systems supported by the public sector, so, education, culture, as well as state administration, including the police and the military, it is impossible to imagine life in our country. This is also found by the Confederation of Public Sector Trade Unions, which combines eight important, large public sector unions.

Host: Later we will discuss stereotypes in the public sector, but now I'll point out something positive that actually breaks those stereotypes. A survey on satisfaction with certain public services provided at key life milestones was conducted by the OECD between October and November last year in ten European countries. It showed that Slovenian users are satisfied with these services and receive what they expect. On average, satisfaction with these services stands at 70 %, while in Slovenia it reaches 75 %. How do you comment on this result?

Ramšak Pešec: The services covered by this survey are mainly administrative, so, citizens sorting out their administrative procedures, identity documents, retirement, building permits, various documents to sort out their status ... I think that this response is a result of the actual situation. For instance, the procedures at administrative units have become far friendlier in recent years, as did the operation of the administrative units. So, I think that these results are deserved and objective.

Host: And you?

Ilešič Čujovič: I think we definitely live in an orderly country. Of course, there is always room for improvement at all levels, but we have to realise that not everything is bad and that we do not have to question everything all the time, which is also shown by this survey. We should tell ourselves that more often.

Host: Now, on to the stereotypes or myths that we should bust. We have safe, well-paid jobs in the public sector, and we don't even work a lot. But we also find it hard to imagine the services in the public sector as market-oriented and profitable. Why do you find the public sector in Slovenia important?

Ramšak Pešec: Without a public sector there is no state. I am certain that that is a fundamental element of every country. Regarding the stereotype about work in the public sector, I would say that it is harmful and even offensive to public servants, as it is a very broad spectrum of extremely important tasks, with which we create systems whose users are our citizens. We are directly and indirectly taking care of our citizens. It is also difficult work, which is also attractive to young people, if this type of work suits them. Since I work in administration myself, I can say that no private company can offer such a wide range of options, jobs, situations and work with various stakeholders like the public sector can. I think very few private companies offer such a wide range of options. So there are many opportunities, there is a lot of work and the responsibility is great. Anyone who has a work ethic and shows at least a little proactivity and responsibility can create a career in the public sector and is, sooner or later, noticed and recognised. The public sector is indisputably important. We all need it every day, and not just for administrative services, but things like healthcare, education, culture, science, all of our institutions that provide us with daily services we need for life. It is crucial that we maintain the level of service we have in Slovenia, as I am sure that it is at a fairly high, enviable level. Of course, occasionally we get not really a problem, but a challenge in terms of how to maintain or improve it. But these are situations that we more or less expect in life. But it is crucial that we maintain public services at this level, where the priorities are accessibility, quality, solidarity and reciprocity in their implementation. We cannot allow the priority of public services to become profit or some kind of financial gain. If that happens, it will be to the detriment of us as individuals first, and then society as a whole.

Host: Our constitution states that we are a social state. How do you view these stereotypes?

Ilešič Čujovič: Yes, correct. The problem with stereotypes is that I think the average Slovenian doesn't know who qualifies as a public servant, who is part of the public sector. They probably mostly, stereotypically imagine employees of administrative units and employees of ministries, and beyond that they do not think about what the public sector is. The public sector is actually everything we see around us, nurseries, schools, high schools, universities, culture as a whole, opera singers, actors, just to name a few professions, not to mention the police and the military who provide security in our country. I could also mention scientists, researchers and, last but not least, all healthcare employees, including doctors and all other healthcare workers, employees in social security, in centres for social work, nursing homes, special social care institutions and other social institutions. So, basically, wherever you turn, you see a public servant, but it may not be paid a lot of attention. And when you bring your child to a nursery, where it is received by teachers, your first thought isn't that they are public servants, but they are. And you probably don't think that they don't do anything and that they have a safe, high-paying job. This also wouldn't be true, because salaries vary and this stereotype would be very wrong. So, we should be more aware. And, while the level of public sector services is high, which I believe it currently is, we are not as aware of this fact. If, and I hope this never happens, we were to start losing it, we would become aware of it, but by then it would be too late. The level of services and the public sector must be maintained, because this process of collapse, to put it catastrophically, is irreversible, I'm afraid, and we cannot go back.

Host: Many foreigners are surprised by, say, how quickly they get documents at an administrative unit or that they don't go bankrupt by going to a doctor. Such benefits are rarely talked about.

Ilešič Čujovič: True. You take what you were born with for granted. For instance, childbirth is free, while in other countries that is not a given. But we were born with this and we have been living in this country for a while, so we take it for granted and we do not pay it much attention. But those of us who work with the system know it's not a given. Those who are more familiar with comparable systems abroad know that it is something that needs to be fought for, and fought for hard to be kept. And that's what we do.

Host: After several years, this government managed to reform the salary system and some other acts are also being amended. We can say that you are a child of the public sector. Was the aim of this reform also to attract young people to the public sector?

Ramšak Pešec: The aim was definitely also to attract or rather to improve the salaries of new employees, but it wasn't the only one. It was only right that we looked at rewarding existing employees and improved the system for them as well. Of course, the public sector also competes in the labour market, which is very difficult, as employers compete fiercely. It wasn't just because of this, for several years prior there has clearly been a need to make the public sector more attractive to new employees through the salary system as well. So, this reform of the salary system was necessary. It needed to be looked at in terms of which parts need improving. Not just regarding salary amounts, but also the possibility of additionally rewarding hard-working, competent, successful workers, and the possibility of rewarding younger workers still early in their careers, whom we need in the public sector due to limiting employment in the public sector, which was necessary at the time. Of course, the question is whether this limitation perhaps lasted too long, but we had to limit the number of people in the public sector due to the situation of public finance at the time. This caused a personnel gap and a certain age structure, which we will have to change and improve with younger employees. Younger workers also bring fresh perspectives and energy. But we have to establish suitable conditions to bring younger workers to the public sector. In this regard, this wage system provides greater possibilities than the previous one by also rewarding younger workers at the start of their careers. We are sure that this is one of the factors with which we will attract new personnel to the public sector and keep the existing one.

Host: You represent professions that lack workers in Slovenia. Will this reform attract young people into professions that care for the most vulnerable groups?

Ilešič Čujovič: I believe it will. I hope it will. But definitely, in addition to having eliminated disparities and established new pay grades within the revised salary scale, we will also have to implement the institutional mechanisms we defined in the Common Foundations of the Public Sector Salary System Act. These important mechanisms include the option to assign a higher pay grade, either at the time of recruitment or for existing employees, because retaining and enhancing the satisfaction of our current staff, which is truly the backbone of our system today, is just as important as recruiting new staff. Another mechanism is the possibility of reviewing the educational qualifications in unregulated professions where the law does not specify the required competencies for a given occupation. We also have high expectations for the new work performance system, which will come into effect in 2026, and includes provisions that will enhance employee motivation, while the first mechanism under Article 22 of the Act also provides for greater salary flexibility. What will be necessary, and there may still be some teething problems, is for all public sector employers to recognise that these mechanisms are meant to be utilised, not neglected. We are encouraging this very much on the trade union side too. Because no system can work on its own if it is not used. It remains on paper, and we really do not want that. We have not worked hard for two years to now look at the institutions and not use them.

Host: Have you had any feedback? How has the institution about the minimum wage been received?

Ilešič Čujovič: The reactions among the members are very mixed. Quite a few employees are, I have to admit this, unhappy with the new system. Partly this is a reflection of the fact that the difference between the old and the new salary will be paid in six instalments, and that now, on 1 January 2025, only the first instalment of €100 gross has been paid. Some employees in the health and social care sector in the former J salary group were already receiving this amount as a special government project earlier, due to past negotiations, and there is some dissatisfaction. They do not yet see the incentive of the new system. At the same time, as I have mentioned, employers are not yet taking advantage of these new institutions. And, of course, then it is difficult ... I can understand employees not seeing the advantages of the new system yet, but I believe that soon, I reckon that in the first half of this year, this discontent should dissipate, and I hope that these institutions will start to be used.

Host: So there is still some room for change, but six instalments are due to fiscal sustainability, right?

Ramšak Pešec: Yes, the fact is that such a pay rise is unprecedented, not only in the new system that was put in place in 2008, but in the previous public sector wage system as well. This amount had to be distributed and phased in in a way that would be fiscally sustainable. I would perhaps add, as far as the reactions to the introduction of the new pay system go, that we are all impatient, including public employees. Up until the beginning of February, employers' activity mainly comprised of transferring employees from the old to the new pay system. I believe that in this next step, the application of these new pay institutions will come into play. We have only implemented the first part of the new wage reform, this second part, and everything together, will actually give the results that we wanted. Yes, on fiscal sustainability. Throughout the negotiations we were, and we still are, under the watchful eye of both the domestic and the European authorities that look after fiscal policy. Even yesterday, we had to explain to the European Commission, or they asked us for data on precisely this long-term fiscal sustainability. We were able to present a system that they also confirmed is fiscally sustainable. So I would really advise the public employees to wait at least a few more months until the new system is actually fully implemented with all the institutions available. Just like the trade union side, the Ministry of Public Administration is encouraging the individual ministries to give instructions to their public institutions, to guide them, to explain what options they have to reward public employees appropriately. I believe, however, that the expectations of such a large number of public employees were different, and that we did not and could never meet all expectations. It is up to us to respond to the questions, to respond also to the frustrations and criticisms, to try to explain, to try to understand, to acknowledge that perhaps in such a complex system, involving such a large number of people, involving almost 5.000 different jobs, 1.500 different employers, it is entirely possible that not all solutions are optimal, that there may have been a mistake. But that is why together with the trade unions we have agreed and set up a special working group to monitor the implementation of the wage system in practice, which is also made aware of all these questions that we get, and it analyses them, and that together we can find out whether there might have been some inadequate legal solution at systemic level, so that we can discuss it and find a solution.

Host: Both of you were involved in the negotiations, on different sides of the table. After two years of negotiations, did you breathe a sigh of relief when they were concluded and you signed the collective agreement? State Secretary?

Ramšak Pešec: Of course. I was really glad that we brought the matter to a conclusion, not to take any credit for any great matter, but mainly because I think the public employees deserved an agreement. And the worst thing would have been to have agreed nothing and to leave the situation as it is. But I have repeatedly warned throughout the negotiations that we need to stick to a timetable, because what we have agreed has to be put into practice. After the negotiations, which we concluded in November, the focus of the work then fell on our ministry to prepare all these piles of documents, various annexes, and above all to make sure this new system is implemented in practice. The employers were not directly involved in the negotiations, the negotiations were intensive, so it was not possible to inform all the employers in great detail during the negotiations. So it was the first time that they were informed about the agreement. They had to be trained. Different examples had to be prepared. An information system had to be prepared, which the ministry undertook to make, for the translation of wages into the new system. The implementation stage took place right around the New Year period. I was glad, but I was also aware that there was still a great deal of work to be done. But we are doing it with goodwill, in the cooperation with the trade unions as well. The negotiations have been arduous, but they have been extremely fair and constructive, and without the responsibility on both the government and trade union side, we would never have brought this to an end. We have parted ways on several occasions, we have said things out loud to each other on several occasions, but we have never closed the door. I think that is what counts in the end and what leads to the result.

Host: So respectful communication. What were your first thoughts when you reached the agreement?

Ilešič Čujovič: Similarly to the State Secretary, I was aware that one stage is behind us, but there are new stages coming, and certainly on our side, explaining to our members what we have achieved and the points that we have not achieved, but we have agreed to negotiate on them further. I have to say, though, that for our union, this was the third round of negotiations in three years. We started negotiations in 2021, immediately after the pandemic, which was a tough period, we continued negotiations in 2022, and then came into negotiations in 2023 and 2024. I feel that we are constantly negotiating, so I was all the more pleased that we have concluded this part of the negotiations and this reform, which I also felt was urgently needed. In the autumn of last year, I even had a feeling a couple of times that we might not come to the end of the negotiations successfully, and that the negotiations might end without signing the documents. There were indeed a lot of nuts to crack, so it is not a given. I think it is important to tell your viewers and listeners that it was not a given that we came to this agreement, to reach this agreement. We had to be quite wise, both the government and the union trade, to reach an agreement. I believe that every agreement is better than parting without one. Of course, we had to make compromises in the end, but I believe that we made a step to the right direction and now we can make further steps together.

Host: Are you satisfied with the negotiations and the attitude?

Ilešič Čujovič: The government had a correct attitude, I have to say. We didn't agree all the time, for sure. Like the State Secretary said, sometimes someone raised the tone or gave a sour look. But the communication was always respectful and we tried to negotiate with arguments. I believe that this is the only right way to negotiate. Of course, we can look at the same thing from different perspectives, which happened quite a few times.

Host: Today, you two sound harmonious. Congratulations for the agreement. We have mentioned a few things. The system was put into practice. Probably, there are some mistakes, as we've said. You are also a part of the group in the Ministry of Public Administration. Can you introduce us this group? What does it do?

Ilešič Čujovič: At the conclusion of negotiations we have agreed with the government to form a so-called group for implementation to monitor the implementation of all these documents, namely the Law on the common basis of the public sector pay system and all other documents. The group started to work, it came into being. We are working on a very high professional level. The representatives of the government that are mostly working on the Ministry of Public Administration and if needed we are joint by professionals from other Ministries. We also have representatives from the union trades. The questions that come to light on the governmental side or on the union trade's side we try to discuss. If it is possible we try to harmonise the views. I believe that information that come like this, namely coordinated on both sides, is without a doubt a much better information. It would be wrong that the government or the union trade is explaining the same provision in quite the opposite way. With it, we would make anomalies or inconsistency in the system. And employers or workers wouldn't know any more who to believe. We didn't want this. There are so many novelties that this is absolutely redundant. The group will continue working. There are quite a lot of questions. We try to detect them on different levels. We could harmonise for quite a few questions.

Host: Is this a completely professional group?

Ramšak Pešec: Yes, it is working professionally as my colleague mentioned. The government, employers and union trades are explaining the questions or provisions that are not very clear. They are answering the questions that employers or civil servants are having. For some period, this group shall report to the negotiators and maybe there will be a question that will need to be agreed upon. This is not an interest group. On negotiations that we are having at the end of this month or at the beginning of next one we are discussing individual questions that demand a solution or an agreement.

Host: On social media we have also collected a few questions from public sector. I would like to ask you for answers. There were a few questions about promotions. People who should within the previous system be promoted for two pay grades will be promoted for one step. And instead of an 8% raise they will get only a 3% raise.

Ramšak Pešec: This question or this criticism has already appeared and we've heard it at the Ministry. The fact is that the promotion system is now reformed. But it's not the only system that is reformed here. We can't look at just one part of the new salary system, because the values of the new pay grades are higher and evaluations of individual positions are higher, so the promotion system is just a part of the whole system. We have to see it that way. Before, the values of pay grades were lower and evaluations, which are now higher. And the promotion system is a bit different. It's true that the difference in grades is now 3% and not 4%, but the promotion system has a different time definition. Younger employees in lower pay grades can be promoted sooner, even in two years. Accelerated promotion is also possible. Namely, for two steps, not only for one. In the old system such promotions were an exception not a rule, when somebody got a very high evaluation. That's why the evaluation is not a basis for promotion anymore. We can answer this question only in the context of the whole reform of the salary system. The whole reform is not to the detriment of the employees.

Host: Would you like to add something?

Ilešič Čujovič: No. It's true that the system is as explained. In the system that we were co-creating with the government we had to enter some transitional regimes. One of them is this, what happens this year. At the same time it's true that the evaluations are not needed for promotion, which is a big relief for evaluators and civil servants. There are some other elements that are differently introducing the new system and there can't be an ideal match between the old and new system.

Host: There is a question regarding the sick leave. Civil servants that are on sick leave for more than three months did not get the raise, but the same salary. Why?

Ramšak Pešec: This refers to compensations and basis for the compensation of a salary. Right now only a salary for January was paid within the new system. Everybody that was on sick leave in January and got a compensation, it was calculated on the basis of the old salary system. These basis are different. If it was a salary for vacation, it was paid for a previous month, namely for December. The sick leave compensation that an employer pays for 30 days is an average of three previous months. Basis for a long sick leave or care for family members is last year's salary. In payment of these compensations, the new salary system could not be evident because of the return system.

Host: This question is for both, because you have indicated solutions. When I started to work in public sector in year 2019 an employer placed me in the initial pay grade despite 14 years of seniority. With it, we are in unequal position compared to our colleagues who work there from the beginning. Has the new salary system a solution for this? Can you begin?

Ilešič Čujovič: This is the institute of the 22nd Article of the Act on common basis of the salary system that enables a higher salary for the long-time employees. There are also quotas established. Only 10% of the employees per year can exercise this right. This is a typical example, how an employer can use the 22nd Article. He or she need a consent from the competent Ministry, but with the confirmatory application on this topic there shouldn't be any problems with getting a consent. With it, it's easier to transfer from private sector to public sector.

Ramšak Pešec: It's true. The definition of a basic salary is a typical instrument available to the employer for managing the personnel and managing the salaries. If the employer in a certain case didn't choose to classify the new employee in a higher pay grade and took into consideration the experience from previous work the experience were probably incomparable with the position that was to be done now. In the new system the possibility of acknowledging and classifying in higher pay grades is even easier than before. The employer can consider the work experience of an individual from a private sector. If he or she would already be promoted an employee can be without a consent placed in a higher pay grade than it would be done normally. He or she can place the employee in the highest pay grade or in a lower one. The second step into praxis of the new system are the instruments which an employer has on hand to manage personnel by setting a salary. This also means that the employers should make and follow a review of the number of employees and their salaries. They can regulate these salaries with individual instruments. They can award, compare. The newly employed will be also placed in some kind of model and wage relations between the personnel. This is an opportunity for the employers. I hope they take it. The old system was criticized that it is too stiff, too formalistic and that the employers don't have the space to manage the system. Now, they have this possibility. We will remind them about the new institutes and we will tackle them together. Now we can put even more energy and emphasis to this part. I hope that the employers will use these instruments. It's true that with a possibility that the employers have, they assume the responsibility too. I hope that they are ready to assume it.

Host: I've mentioned disregarding the education. The old system was considering only the education. What does the institute of disregarding the education bring?

Ilešič Čujovič: This institute brings a significance of work experience. Or some experience, gained with work in addition to the education. It's not just the education that ensures a competent work. A competent work can be based also on experience. This is in the Act mainly reserved for unregulated professions. Doctors, for example, can't make up the education with experience. It was not meant this way. But if I give you an example: an assistant cook who has worked in public sector for 30 year and has gained experience while working. The employer can disregard the education for him or her and offer him or her a position of a cook. There are conditions. Some conditions are for people already working in public sector and others for the newly employed. First, for a fixed period, if nobody with right requirements applies for this position. Maybe the right education. At the end he or she can get a permanent job. This institute is quite limited, because we don't want a lower quality of service. The fact is that there are a lot of competent people in public sector that don't comply with the condition of education. They could do their work on the basis of the right employment agreement. On the other hand, we have a deficit. Some professions are very scarce. Including the former pay group J. Now it's called a 9. Certain activities or accompanying jobs often offer better salaries in a private sector. Here, we have some space. Disregarding the education or 22nd Article for setting a higher pay. I agree that this is a responsibility of the employer. But we have to say that the finances are needed here. In some parts of public sector this is maybe easier and in parts, where there isn't a direct financing, this is harder. We have talked about it with the government and we have agreed upon that the government will ensure the funds for enforcement of this new pay system.

Host: Last question. It was very complex. I hope we have summarised it well. Some employees were placed in maximum pay grades and won't be able to advance anymore. The ones who reached the maximum in the old system, were placed for three pay grades higher than the final pay grade is on a new scale. Are the civil servants in unequal positions now?

Ramšak Pešec: No, I wouldn't say so. But this is also one of the criticisms or questions regarding the new salary system. What will happen with those that are in final pay grades? The fact is that we can be promoted for ten pay grades. This is not little, it's actually quite a lot. An individual that works in a certain position is gradually gaining a 30% higher salary. In the old system it would be even 40%. For this reason, the possibility of getting a maximum pay is extended in the new system. In the praxis of evaluation as it was in the old system, some people reached the final pay grade after 15 years of work. Of course, people ask themselves what will happen with them. This person, except if he or she would get a fast promotion, would be unsatisfied, because he or she can't advance with a bad grade. This reaction is a little surprising. I reached these pay grades quite fast. What will happen now? This is a result of the system and a possibility for the employer. And employees expected to reach the maximum possibilities for promotion. It just means that an individual reaches a higher salary that could be reached later, gained beforehand. Some people have exceeded the final pay grades, which was a part of transformation from the old to the new system. If this wasn't a possibility, and considering the value of increasing the pay grades, every next pay grade was in the old system 4% higher and 3% higher in the new system. If it wasn't allowed for the pay grades to exceed 10 new grades, some people could get a lower salary than in the old system. This is one version of so-called protected wages, which were already in the system from the year 2008. Because of a lower percentage of raising wages in higher grades, we had to add a possibility of more grades to keep the level of nominal wages, so that people wouldn't receive lower wages for the same pay grade.

Host: You have also mentioned the variable part. An individual can earn this with a good work.

Ilešič Čujovič: Yes. This last question is causing quite a lot of dissatisfaction. We are looking for solutions, but the fact is that we tried to replace the institute of a protected wage. At the same time, both of us, the government and union trade side had to ensure that nobody gets a lower salary. Unfortunately, this isn't the case from various reasons. Either some positions were abolished or there were some other problems. Not necessarily a mistake, but a problem in a system. We are solving this in our group or searching for solutions. We shall open this, when we start to negotiate at the end of this month.

Host: So, there won't be a lack of challenges in the future?

Ilešič Čujovič: No. We are not afraid of getting bored.

Host: I'm grateful that you came here. March is a month of women, we are celebrating two holidays. I wish you to stay successful, upstanding and competent women in this profession. Congratulations on this holiday.

Ramšak Pešec: Thank you.

Ilešič Čujovič: Thank you. Likewise.

Host: Thank you for watching us. You can follow us on all platforms, where you can find podcasts, and on governmental YouTube channel. Thank you and goodbye.