Blejski strateški forum 2025: Kam je pobegnil naš svet?

V 26. epizodi GOVSI podkasta Zoran Potič gosti Petra Grka, dolgoletnega sekretarja Blejskega strateškega foruma in diplomata, ki že več kot desetletje soustvarja enega najvidnejših slovenskih zunanjepolitičnih dogodkov.

Grk je uvodoma poudaril, da se je zunanja politika v zadnjih letih »vrnila skozi velika vrata« v vsakdanje življenje Evropejcev – bodisi skozi posledice vojn, geopolitičnih preobratov ali podnebnih kriz. Blejski strateški forum v takem kontekstu predstavlja ključen prostor za dialog, izmenjavo pogledov in iskanje odgovorov na kompleksna globalna vprašanja. Glavno poslanstvo foruma je ustvarjati okolje, kjer se akterji z različnimi pogledi slišijo in ne zgolj govorijo mimo drug drugega.

Forum se je razvil iz diplomacije po predsedovanju Organizaciji za varnost in sodelovanje v Evropi leta 2005, prva izvedba pa je bila namenjena Južnemu Kavkazu. Skozi leta je forum zrasel iz dogodka z nekaj sto udeleženci v relevantno mednarodno platformo. Eden ključnih premikov v njegovi zgodovini je bil prispevek k razpravi o vodni varnosti, ki je s panelne razprave v Bledu vplival celo na program ZN Vrh o vodi – dokaz, da lahko majhen dogodek prispeva k velikim premikom.

Grk je poudaril pomen vključenosti mladih, saj so nekateri nekdanji udeleženci mladinskega strateškega foruma kasneje postali ministri, celo premierji. Letošnja 20. izvedba foruma bo nosila naslov Pobegli svet. Kot pravi Grk, gre za razmislek o tem, kam se svet premika – in predvsem, ali Evropa zmore ta tektonski premik razumeti, se nanj odzvati in se mu prilagoditi.

Ob 20-letnici foruma se bodo odpirale teme, kot so evropska obramba, tehnološka in energetska avtonomija, boj proti dezinformacijam, podnebne spremembe in vprašanje evropske identitete. 

Vabljeni k poslušanju in ogledu!

[ENGLISH VERSION]

Bled Strategic Forum 2025: A Runaway World

The 26th episode of the GOVSI podcast features Zoran Potič talking with Peter Grk, long-time Secretary General of the Bled Strategic Forum and seasoned diplomat, who has been shaping the forum for over a decade.

Grk began by emphasizing that foreign policy has, in recent years, re-entered the daily lives of Europeans—whether through the consequences of war, geopolitical upheavals, or climate crises. In this context, the Bled Strategic Forum serves as a crucial platform for dialogue, exchanging viewpoints, and seeking responses to complex global challenges. According to Grk, the forum’s core mission is to foster an environment where diverse actors actually listen to one another—not just talk past each other.

Originally launched following Slovenia’s 2005 OSCE Chairmanship, the first edition of the Bled Strategic Forum focused on the South Caucasus. Since then, the forum has grown from a small event of a few hundred participants into an internationally relevant platform. One of its most notable milestones was its contribution to the global water security debate, which started with a modest panel in Bled and eventually influenced the agenda of the UN Water Conference.

Grk also highlighted the growing inclusion of youth voices. Several participants of the Bled Youth Strategic Forum have gone on to become ministers and even prime ministers. This year’s 20th edition of the Bled Strategic Forum carries the title The Runaway World. Grk explains that the forum will examine the notion of a world drifting away—from Western influence and values—and the urgent question of whether Europe can still adapt, respond, and remain resilient amid these tectonic changes.

The agenda will tackle critical topics such as European defence, technological and energy autonomy, disinformation, cyber security, climate change, and perhaps most importantly, the question of European identity. The forum can be followed live and across social media.

Tune in and watch!

Transcript

Vladni podkast GOVSI

Voditelj Zoran Potič: Spoštovane gledalke in gledalci, poslušalke in poslušalci. Dobrodošli že v 26. epizodi podkasta Gov.si, ki ga za vas kot vedno pripravlja Urad vlade za komuniciranje. Tokrat sem za spremembo z vami Zoran Potič. V podkastu smo se do zdaj nekako ukvarjali z notranjepolitičnimi in družbenimi temami, ki so po svoje zanimive na takšen ali drugačen način za državljane in državljanke. Tokrat pa bi se posvetili nekemu drugemu zornemu kotu, drugi temi, v bistvu zunanji politiki, ki pa v bistvu ni v tem smislu zunanja politika, ampak orodje zunanje politike. V bistvu na nek način v zakulisje, zaodrje, kjer se v bistvu formirajo teme in oplajajo ideje in postavljajo smernice za prihodnost. In v tem primeru bi lahko dejali, da gre v tem primeru za Blejski strateški forum. In v tem primeru bo najboljši sogovornik na to temo seveda diplomat, v prvi vrsti diplomat in sekretar, če se ne motim, Blejskega strateškega foruma Peter Grk. Bi ga v tem primeru pozdravil.

Gost Peter Grk: Pozdravljeni.

Voditelj: Lep pozdrav. Kot rečeno, Peter Grk je zadnja leta, kot sem si v pripravah zapisal, tesal, oblikoval, gnetel, spravljal forum v življenje in me zdaj zanima, če začnemo z aktualno temo: ali lahko Blejski strateški forum napove to, kar se zdaj dogaja na svetovni ravni? Blejski strateški forum bo seveda na kratko pomemben v tem kontekstu, kar zdaj spremljamo na svetovnem odru.

Gost: Zanimivo vprašanje za prvo vprašanje. Sem mislil, da bo kaj lažjega.

Voditelj: Za konec smo pustili lažja.

Gost: Gremo potem na ta težja vprašanja na začetku. Jaz mislim, da ... Prva stvar, zunanja politika kot takšna je tudi pomembna za državljane in državljanke. Sicer se ne dotika neposredno njihovih vsakdanjih skrbi, ampak posredno, kar se dogaja v zunanjem okolju, ima neposredne posledice na življenje državljank in državljanov tudi v Sloveniji. In v tem kontekstu, kar se dogaja sedaj v tej neki novi geostrateški realnosti, bo nekaj, kar bo verjetno determiniralo tudi naslednje rodove oziroma življenja naših državljank in državljanov. Tako da, ja, zunanja politika je prišla, jaz mislim, da na velika vrata v življenje vsakega posameznika prek vseh nestabilnosti, konfliktov, ki jih v tem trenutku vidimo na svetu, ne samo ruske agresije na Ukrajino ali pa, kar se dogaja v Gazi, ampak tudi konfliktov, ki ostanejo nekje v ozadju, so pa enako pomembni in tragični za celotno mednarodno skupnost, od Sudana do Jemna do tega, kar se je dogajalo že v preteklosti recimo v Kongu, Ruandi in tako naprej. Jaz mislim, da ga ni junaka, pa tudi Blejski strateški forum ni ta junak, ki bi napovedal, da bomo leta 2025 živeli v taki geostrateški realnosti, kot živimo. Jaz mislim, da še en dan pred rusko agresijo na Ukrajino ni nihče napovedal, da se bo to dejansko zgodilo. Sicer so bili neki strahovi, ampak zdelo se nam je, da tega v Evropi ne bomo več videli. Tudi to, kar se recimo v tem trenutku dogaja v Gazi s to neverjetno silo in nesorazmernostjo, s katero je Izrael odgovoril na napad Hamasa. Mislim, da je to nekaj, kar je nemogoče, da bi kdorkoli napovedal. Po drugi strani, napovedovalo se je, da se bo ameriška zunanja politika spremenila s prihodom ...

Voditelj: Nove administracije.

Gost: Nove administracije in to se je dejansko tudi zgodilo. Mislim, da v določenih primerih smo vseeno presenečeni, ker nismo pričakovali, da dejansko bo šlo v tako smer. Vedeli smo, da bo ta smer drugačna, ampak da bo pa šlo v tako spremembo ameriške zunanje politike, pa mislim, da večina ljudi ni pričakovala. Ja, v tem trenutku živimo v neki novi geostrateški realnosti. Mislim, da je Gramsci tisti, ki je povedal, da živimo v času, ko stari svet umira, novi se pa še ni rodil, in v tem vmesnem obdobju smo priča veliki nestabilnosti.

Voditelj: Potrebujemo forume, kot je Blejski strateški forum, kjer lahko vse te stvari osmislimo, razumemo, obdelamo z različnih kotov. Je to ...

Gost: Jaz mislim, da zdaj bolj kot kdajkoli prej, ampak ne toliko, ker se pogovarjamo, čeprav je prav, da se pogovarjamo, ampak predvsem, da slišimo. Jaz mislim, da v tem trenutku v zunanji politiki, pa tudi v različnih drugih kontekstih družbenega življenja, je problem to, da se ljudje med sabo ne poslušajo.

Voditelj: To je smisel diplomacije …

Gost: To je smisel diplomacije, da lahko ti sogovorniku predstaviš eno stvar in da sogovornik to stvar ponotranji oziroma jo razume. In v takih primerih navadno potem pride do nekega kompromisa, ki pomeni neko pot naprej. In se mi zdi, da v tem trenutku smo pa vsaj v zunanji politiki soočeni z dejstvom, da se ljudje pogovarjajo eden mimo drugega in da dejansko države, regionalni igralci ne slišijo eden drugega. In zato smo priča vsem tem konfliktom, ki se dogajajo.

Voditelj: Če sva začela na koncu, predlagam, da greva na začetek. Namreč, kako se je Blejski strateški forum skozi vsa ta leta razvijal. Kako je sploh prišlo do pobude, da se je to organiziralo, da se je to vzpostavilo. In kako je potem to potekalo skozi leta? Kako je ta stvar rasla?

Gost: Mislim … Sicer nisem bil takrat zraven, takrat sem bil še mlad in nadobuden diplomat. Mislim, da sem bil ravno na misiji v Bruslju pred začetkom predsedovanja.

Voditelj: To se je zgodilo 2006.

Gost: To se je zgodilo 2006. Ampak po pogovorih z mojimi predhodniki: ideja je bila in jaz mislim, da je dejansko super ideja, da se nadgradi določeno znanje, ki ga je Slovenija ali pa diplomatska služba slovenska dobila po predsedovanju OVSE-ju, se pravi Organizaciji za varnost in mir v Evropi, ki smo ji kot Slovenija, predsedovali 2004, 2005. In takrat je minister, takrat je bil profesor Dimitrij Rupel minister, s svojimi sodelavci prišel na idejo, da bi to znanje, ki smo ga dobili prek predsedovanja tej organizaciji, pretočili v nekaj bolj strateškega oziroma v nekaj, kar bi povečalo tako imenovano mehko moč slovenske zunanje politike. Mi se moramo zavedati, da Slovenija je velika kot München in naša realna moč spreminjati zadeve v mednarodni skupnosti leži samo v tem, da imamo določene ideje, določene premisleke, določena stališča, ki jih potem plasiramo in na osnovi teh stališč in teh premislekov, če so dobri, pride mogoče do oblikovanja nekega širšega kompromisa in tukaj je Slovenija hotela odigrati neko vlogo. Zato Blejski strateški forum, da po eni strani predstavlja neko okno v svet Slovenije in promocijo Slovenije kot države, ki hoče igrati aktivno vlogo v mednarodni skupnosti, po drugi strani pa tudi prostor, kjer različni igralci pridejo v konstruktivno, izredno lepo atmosfero Bleda - Bled je v bistvu eno od najlepših mest sveta - in se lahko na neformalen način pogovarjajo o izredno težkih zadevah. To je bila premisa na začetku. Mislim, da prvi forum je bil posvečen prav zaradi predsedovanja Organizaciji za varnost in sodelovanje v Evropi Južnemu Kavkazu. Zgodovina se ponavlja. Takrat je bila velika kriza med Armenijo in Azerbajdžanom in tako naprej. Začele so se pojavljati tudi težnje po raznih energetskih koridorjih in tale pot je predstavljala eno od pomembnejših vizij tudi za Evropo pri energetski neodvisnosti. To je bil prvi forum, majhen, relativno majhen, okoli 200, 300 ljudi. In ja, v teh letih smo zrasli do ene številke, ampak nočem govoriti o številkah. Številke ne povedo celotne zgodbe. Mislim, da ključna stvar Blejskega strateškega foruma je predvsem moč, da lahko govorimo o določenih problemih. Kasneje smo bili pripravljeni pripeljati ljudi, ki različno mislijo, jih usesti za isto mizo, da se med seboj poslušajo. In potem so prišle tudi določene konkretne stvari, konkretna vprašanja, ki smo jih potem poslali v mednarodno skupnost.

Voditelj: Dajte mi en primer.

Gost: Ja, recimo. Meni je najbolj zanimiva ena tema, kot mi rečemo v diplomaciji, fringe tema, se pravi na obrobju - Vodna varnost. Water Security. Slovenija je ena ključnih pobudnic, da se razpravlja o vodni varnosti z različnih vidikov, ker se nam zdi, da vprašanje vode, predvsem s klimatskimi spremembami, bo v prihodnosti igralo precej pomembno vlogo v mednarodni skupnosti. Imeli smo panel, mislim, da je bilo to dve leti nazaj ali pa tri, o vodni varnosti. Bil je majhen panel. Moram priznati, zelo slabo obiskan, ampak panelisti, ki so bili na panelu, so bili pa izjemni. In po koncu panela, po koncu razprave, ki je bila res dobra in lahko si jo pogledate na YouTubu še vedno, so panelisti prišli na idejo, da bi naredili neko deklaracijo oziroma nek papir o vodni varnosti, ki bi bil kot BSF prispevek celotni debati, ki se je dogajala. In dejansko so ga naredili. Ta papir smo posredovali po socialnih omrežjih BSF-ja in tudi prek naše diplomatske mreže. Čez 14 dni sta veleposlanico v Ženevi poklicala Tadžikistan in pa Nizozemska, ki sta bila sopredsedujoča Vrhu o vodi Združenih narodov in so rekli, da ker je tam notri zapisan nek nov vidik, ki v tem trenutku še ni bil obravnavan in bi hoteli, da se ga dejansko vzame kot eno temo na vrhu o vodi Združenih narodov. In to se je dejansko zgodilo. Se pravi, da od Bleda, od enega majhnega dogodka, enega majhnega panela, do tega, da je potem ta vrh o vodi obravnaval ta vidik vodne varnosti. In zaključki, ki so bili sprejeti, predstavljajo pot naprej, ki mogoče oziroma mislim, da skoraj sigurno bo igrala pomemben vidik tega, da se določeni konflikti morebiti v prihodnje ne bodo zgodili, predvsem zaradi vodnih virov in pomanjkanja vode.

Voditelj: Tako imenovana vodna diplomacija.

Gost: Vodna diplomacija.

Voditelj: Ampak to je izjemno zanimivo. Namreč, zanima me v tem primeru, v tem kontekstu, kako na ministrstvu, pri vas, na BSF izbirate teme? Kakšen je ta proces, miselni proces? Je to prepuščeno naključju? Napišete na listke pa potem malo pomešate pa žrebate ali je to nek miselni proces, nek izbor, poskus vpogleda v prihodnost, kaj bi bilo, ne bi bilo? Kako to poteka?

Gost: Mislim, da poskušamo vsako leto biti bolj koherentni. Ne vem, če nam uspeva. Se mi zdi, da morebiti najboljše ideje se rodijo iz nekega miselnega viharja, iz nekega kaosa, kjer radi vprašamo večje število ljudi, ne samo diplomate, ampak dejansko tudi ljudi, ki so del civilne družbe, od profesorjev do gospodarstvenikov in tako naprej. Letos smo recimo za primer organizirali dve okrogli mizi, sicer ne javni, zaprtega tipa, kjer smo povabili nekaj udeležencev BSF iz različnih profesij oziroma iz različnih zornih kotov, od civilne družbe do profesorjev do gospodarstvenikov do diplomatov do upokojenih veleposlanikov do generalov celo in tako naprej in smo tam razpravljali o tem, v kakšnem trenutku se mednarodna skupnost nahaja in kaj bi bila tista tema, se pravi glavna, ki bi to novo realnost čim bolj opisala. In rezultat je bil zanimiv, ker v bistvu na koncu vidiš v realnosti, zakaj je pomembno, da imaš vse aspekte družbe za eno mizo. Večkrat rečem, da trenutek, v katerem živimo, je preveč pomemben, da bi ga pustili samo politikom, in se mi zdi, da v kolikor ne bomo dosegli, in tukaj je Blejski strateški forum pomemben, nekega širšega družbenega soglasja, kam gremo in kaj so tiste stvari, ki so pomembne, potem se zna zgoditi, da bodo šle stvari zelo narobe, kakor že v tem trenutku grejo. In zato smo se letos še posebej potrudili pri izboru teme, pri pogovoru z resnično ogromno deležniki, zato da pridemo do nekega koncepta, ki pije vodo. Če pa recimo govorimo, kako je šlo vse skupaj v preteklosti. Ja, obstaja premislek znotraj zunanjega ministrstva. Tukaj uporabimo vse diplomatsko znanje, ki ga imamo. Se pravi, da se Blejski strateški forum pogovarja z različnimi direktorati, ki pokrivajo različne teme, potem pa gremo s tem ven v civilno družbo in preverimo, ali so te ideje dejansko tiste, ki so pomembne. Do sedaj je delovalo, mislim, da smo bili precej aktualni skozi leta. Ne bom govoril o številkah, ampak ja, prišli smo do neke zgornje meje, ki jo še dopušča infrastruktura na Bledu. Tako da zdaj, če govorimo že malo o prihodnosti Blejskega strateškega foruma. Definitivno se ne bo povečeval. Želimo pa si, da bi bil še bolj vsebinski, da bi še več idej lahko prispevali v debato, ki jo zdaj imamo v mednarodni skupnosti.

Voditelj: Ja, omenjali ste, da je bilo na začetku, začetki so bili skromni po številu, pa po temah vedno močni. To je seveda naraslo. Kateri so bili po vašem taki zgodovinsko prelomni BSF-ji oziroma kateri je morebiti pustil največji pečat poleg tega o vodni diplomaciji? Je to mogoče tudi merilo pomembnosti, udeležba politikov, predstavnikov mednarodne skupnosti, ki so se udeležili, od predsednice Evropske komisije, predsednika Sveta EU in tako naprej?

Gost: Ja, to je malo ... Mislim, to je zame podobno vprašanje, ko te vprašajo tvoji lastni otroci, katerega imaš raje. Vse imaš enako rad, glede na to, da veš, koliko živcev, potrpljenja in dela je šlo v vsakega izmed njih, seveda pa javnost vsakega drugače parcipira. Eni se javnosti dopadejo bolj, eni se dopadejo manj. Eni bi si želeli takšne ljudi, eni bi si želeli drugačne ljudi. O zgodovinskosti različnih BSF-jev verjetno je še prezgodaj govoriti, ampak recimo eden, ki mi pade na pamet. Zgodil se je dve leti nazaj, ko je bil na obisku takratni predsednik Evropskega sveta Charles Michel. Zato smo tudi letos povabili recimo novega predsednika Evropskega sveta Costo, ki se bo BSF-ja tudi udeležil. Charles Michel je na BSF-ju napovedal, da po njegovem mnenju bi morala biti Evropska unija pripravljena do leta 2030, da sprejme nove države članice. Mislim, da je bil albanski zunanji minister, ki je potem ta nagovor Michela označil kot Bled pledge, se pravi neka blejska zaveza o tem, da ta proces, ki traja res že predolgo časa oziroma mislim, da predolgo je slaba beseda, ampak traja brez veze dolgo časa, od leta 2003, mislim in solunskega vrha, naj bi se zaključil do 2030 in letos bomo dejansko preverili, ali je to uresničljivo. A je ta zaveza nekaj, kar se bo dejansko zgodilo ali ne. Imamo določene indikacije, dobili smo tudi slovensko komisarko za širitev Marto Kos, da gremo v tej smeri. In to me izredno veseli, tako da če si bomo recimo do leta 2030 en Blejski strateški forum zapomnili, potem upam, da bo ta blejska zaveza dejansko zaživela in da bomo prišli do, kot zdaj govorijo v Evropski komisiji, ne več do širitve, ampak do unifikacije evropskega kontinenta. BSF, če pogledamo zgodovino in vsa ta leta, kar se je dogajalo, je po moji oceni tudi odigral to neko vlogo podiuma za regijo Jugovzhodne Evrope.

Voditelj: Predsedniki teh držav, vlad so se redno udeleževali Blejskega strateškega foruma in je na nek način tudi orodje slovenske zunanje politike do te regije. Kot neka podaljšana roka, bi rekel. Se strinjate s to oceno?

Gost: Ja in ne. Mislim ja v smislu, da definitivno je ta regija za Slovenijo v našem vitalnem interesu, čisto geostrateško gledano. Če razširimo mi območje miru, varnosti in stabilnosti proti Zahodnemu Balkanu, je to za Slovenijo izredno pomembno. Tako da ta tema je tradicionalna. To je nekaj, kar je pomembno za našo zunanjo politiko, pa tudi za Slovenijo na splošno in naše gospodarstvenike. Ampak je pa res, da skozi leta nekega pogovora, premisleka smo prišli do razumevanja, da ta forum je verjetno nekaj več kot sam Zahodni Balkan. Zdelo se nam je, da slovenska zunanja politika je nekaj več kot le regija Zahodnega Balkana. Če pogledamo recimo čisto v tem trenutku, s čim se slovenska zunanja politika ukvarja, od nestalnega članstva v Varnostnem svetu do tradicionalno močne vloge, ki jo imamo, kar se tiče Gaze, kar se tiče ruske agresije na Ukrajino, kar se tiče prihodnosti Evrope, smo ugotovili, da okej, imamo regijo, imamo širitev, ki je naša izredno pomembna tema in jo bomo ohranili. Po drugi strani smo pa hoteli forum odpreti tudi za tiste teme, ki so malce bolj globalne in so pomembne tudi za razvoj regionalnih dogodkov. Recimo, če govorimo o kibernetski varnosti, če govorimo o klimatskih spremembah, če govorimo o migracijah, če govorimo o transatlantskih odnosih. Se pravi, vse te teme so pomembne, ker igrajo neko vlogo tudi v tem ožjem regionalnem kontekstu, tako da mislim, da ta razvoj Blejskega strateškega foruma od ene platforme za predvsem neke regionalne stvari smo prišli zdaj do malce širšega premisleka o globalni skupnosti kot takšni.

Voditelj: Kako pa je, če gledamo z optike Slovenije in BSF navzven? Kako pa vidijo zunaj Blejski strateški forum? Kakšne imate odzive iz Evrope, iz čezoceanskih držav, Bližnjega vzhoda? Kako te skupnosti gledajo na BSF? Imate vpogled v to?

Gost: Ja, jaz mislim, da najtežje je biti prerok v svoji lastni vasi. Ker če pogledamo odzive od zunaj, so resnično dobri. Saj to se kaže tudi v bistvu v rasti, v tem, da se določeni gostje vedno vračajo nazaj in tako naprej. Ampak ena stvar, ki je zanje pomembna in ki jo ponuja forum za razliko od vseh ostalih strateških dogodkov, ki jih ni malo, imamo in Davos, Münchensko varnostno konferenco, GLOBSEC in tako naprej. In jaz mislim, da zdaj v tem trenutku lahko Blejski strateški forum že damo v to kategorijo, ker je nekaj, kar je dobro, kar je pomembno, predvsem v kontekstu majhne države, kot je Slovenija. Ampak ena stvar, ki nam jo vedno pravijo, je, da se na Bledu počutijo kot del neke širše družbe. Pravijo, da v bistvu Bled, Blejski strateški forum je pomemben, ker je tako inkluziven v smislu tega, da resnično poskušamo pripeljati od mladih do politikov do gospodarstvenikov do profesorjev do akademikov in tako naprej in jih vse postaviti v enakopraven položaj. Zadnjič mi je pisal en moderator, da mu je bil genialno, ko je prišel na sprejem in se lahko pogovarjal z recimo katarskim zunanjim ministrom ob hrani in tako naprej. Ta inkluzivnost je nekaj, kar bomo poskušali ohraniti tudi v prihodnje, ker če se ne bomo med sabo pogovarjali, potem bodo šle zadeve v precej napačno smer.

Voditelj: Ker to je zanimiv moment, da obstaja, ti boš bolj vedel poimenovanje, strateški forum za mlade. Tu sem zasledil zanimivo zgodbo, da ko so študentje prihajali na strateški forum iz tujine, potem so se vračali v nekih drugih funkcijah ti isti ljudje. To se je že zgodilo v teh skoraj 20 letih tega foruma.

Gost: Mislim, da ko smo začeli s to idejo Blejskega strateškega foruma mladih, smo predvsem hoteli dati glas mladim, ker se nam je zdelo, da tega njihovega glasu ni v zunanji politiki, čeprav se pogovarjamo o prihodnosti, ki jo bodo oni živeli, govorimo o klimatskih spremembah in tako naprej. Po drugi strani smo pa hoteli narediti proces, kjer bi pripeljali zelo različne profile mladih ljudi, tistih, ki so pokazali določeno ambicijo, pa tudi določeno znanje, da bi radi nekaj dosegli, ali je to v politiki ali gospodarstvu ali na lokalnem nivoju. In ja, skozi zgodovino mislim, da smo imeli na par ministrov, par mladih ljudi, ki so postali ministri. Mislim, da celo predsednika vlade. To je bivši črnogorski predsednik vlade Abazović. Spomnim se, da je prišel v kavbojkah na BSF. Zdaj pa v bistvu mlade vključujemo vse bolj in bolj. Se pravi, da poskušamo imeti tudi na glavnem Blejskem strateškem forumu v vsaki razpravi vsaj en mlad glas, ki ga izberemo skozi neke procese, diskusije mladih ena na ena z različnimi ljudmi. Recimo lani mi je bila posebej v spominu z Albiejem Sachsom, bivšim ustavnim južnoafriškem sodnikom, to je človek, ki je podpisal konec apartheida, in se mi zdi, da ta izmenjava mnenj med mladimi in izkušenimi predstavniki družbe je izredno pomembna tako za izkušene kot za mlade.

Voditelj: Ja, preden se lotiva letošnjega BSF-ja, me zanima ena stvar. Glede na to, da je Blejski strateški forum že toliko let v pogonu, vpleteno je precejšnje število slovenskih diplomatov v organizacijo in izpeljavo … Kako je po tvojem vplival tak forum na razvoj slovenske diplomacije, diplomatov? Je sploh vplival?

Gost: Ja, dejansko se je skozi teh 20 let zvrstilo ogromno ljudi z zunanjega ministrstva, pa tudi s Centra za evropsko prihodnost, ki je partner Blejskega strateškega foruma. Ogromno število ljudi, ki so preko foruma, dobili eno stvar, vsaj upam, ki včasih nam v Sloveniji manjka, to je samozavest. Samozavest, da niso drugje boljši, da nimajo drugje več znanja kot mi, ampak da včasih malo bolj glasno govorijo, in se mi zdi, da preko Blejskega strateškega foruma, vsaj zadnjih 10 let, ko ga jaz delam, se je zvrstila na BSF-ju plejada mladih diplomatov, ki upam, da so preko tega foruma postali bolj samozavestni in da je tudi Slovenija kot takšna v zunanji politiki postala bolj samozavestna. Ne bom rekel, da je to samo zaradi Blejskega strateškega foruma, ampak upam, da smo vsaj en majhen kamen tega mozaika, da igramo kot Slovenija neko pomembnejšo vlogo v mednarodni skupnosti, kot smo jo v preteklosti.

Voditelj: Skratka, če dam analogijo s športom, lahko igramo v prvi ligi.

Gost: Ja.

Voditelj: Košarkarski ali pa nogometni.

Gost: Se strinjam, to je dobra analogija. Mogoče v hokeju, recimo. Tukaj smo v A skupini in mislim, da je prav, da se nobenega ne ustrašimo, ker smo dokazali, da imamo znanje.

Voditelj: Če greva zdaj, ko se že bližava koncu, na letošnje leto. Peter, omenil si že, da znova prihajajo pomembni visoki gostje. Kaj vse se bo dogajalo letos na tej naši razglednici, na Bledu, kaj vse je možno slišati in kdo vse konec koncev pride? Kdo je napovedal prihod?

Gost: Ja, malo smo razpravljali, kako bi v bistvu obeležili to 20. obletnico, ker to vseeno je nek mejnik, ki je pomemben.

Voditelj: Ki je prelomnica.

Gost: Ki je tudi neka prelomnica. Ampak zdelo se nam je, da čas, v katerem živimo, mogoče ni najbolj primeren za proslave, je pa precej primeren za dobre, močne vsebinske diskusije o tem, kam gremo naprej. Odločili smo se, da bi ob tej 20. obletnici predvsem radi pripeljali še boljše razprave, še bolj vsebinsko globoke, zato da se kot družba premaknemo naprej, ker se mi zdi, da če bomo ostali v tem trenutku, v katerem smo, potem je verjetno možna samo ena smer in ta ne bo lepa. Tako da letos smo poimenovali Blejski strateški forum oziroma rdeča nit in naslov je Pobegli svet.

Voditelj: Pobegli svet.

Gost: Pobegli svet. Prvo vprašanje, ki se postavlja ob tem naslovu, je: pobegli svet od koga oziroma česa in kam?

Voditelj: Tako zagonetno se sliši.

Gost: Je pa ni. Jaz mislim, da če pogledamo trenutno situacijo, potem lahko s precej veliko verjetnostjo govorimo o tem, da svet beži od nas, od zahodnega sveta in se premika nekam drugam. Če bi recimo vprašali Kitajce ali Indijce, težko, da bi rekli, da je njim svet pobegnil. Nam pa je malo pobegnil zaradi tega, ker enostavno se dogajajo taki tektonski premiki, na katere - ne da nismo bili pripravljeni, ampak še nimamo odgovorov. Mislim, da je predvsem od nas odvisno, se pravi od Evrope, v določeni meri tudi od Združenih držav Amerike, čeprav tukaj so neka trenja in tenzije, ki jih bo v prihodnosti treba rešiti. Ampak od zahodnega sveta je odvisno, ali bomo znali prepoznati ta trenutek in postaviti pravo diagnozo in prave odgovore. Zato pobegli svet. Se pravi, da letos bi radi štartali razprave od nas, od Evrope. Kaj Evropa od tega sveta pričakuje, kaj ta svet lahko Evropi da in ali bo Evropa sposobna se spremeniti, da bo lahko kos tej novi realnosti, ki nastaja. Evropa kot takšna - pa mislim, da to je čisto neka zadeva, ki je v nas - tako Slovenci kot Evropejci smo zelo negativni. Evropo smo pokopali že ...

Voditelj: Črnogledi smo, pesimisti.

Gost: Zadnjih deset, 15 let smo Evropo pokopali že vsaj desetkrat. Od energetske krize, od ruskega napada na Ukrajino, od migracij, od finančne krize. Ampak Evropa je še vedno tukaj. Mogoče ranjena, ampak še vedno je tukaj in se mi zdi, da ta odpornost Evrope, ki jo kaže, je izredno zanimiv fenomen, ker se mi zdi, da ta eksperiment, ki mu rečemo Evropska unija, je nekaj, kar je unikum v mednarodni skupnosti, nekaj, za kar se je treba boriti in nekaj, kar je potrebno vzdržati. Bomo lahko? To je odvisno predvsem od nas in od tega, koliko se bomo lahko prilagodili na te nove razmere v mednarodni skupnosti. Tako da letošnji Blejski strateški forum bo predvsem promocija Evrope.

Voditelj: Če se dotaknem vprašanja z začetka, ko si omenjal mehko moč. V bistvu se zdi, kot da je Evropa edina ostala s to mehko močjo, ker vsi ostali uporabljajo moč v mednarodnih odnosih. Očitno se zdi ta dilema zdaj, na kakšen način bo ta svet funkcioniral naprej?

Gost: V vsakem primeru mislim, da glede na naš ustroj in vse skupaj bo ta mehka moč Evrope ostala. Definitivno pa se bomo morali prilagoditi novim stvarem, ki se dogajajo v mednarodnem prostoru. Mislim, iluzorno bi bilo oziroma celo neumno in nesmotrno, da se ne pogovarjamo o evropski obrambi. Mislim, da o evropski obrambi se moramo pogovarjati. Treba je pogledati, kje so tiste pomanjkljivosti, ki jih imamo, zato da kot družba postanemo še bolj odporni. Vem, da ta razprava je tudi v Sloveniji. Je tudi drugje po Evropi. So različna mnenja. Jaz mislim, da nek zdrav, racionalen premislek o tem mora biti, zato da kot Evropa postanemo vse bolj odporni, ne samo vojaško, ampak kot družba v celoti. Tukaj govorimo o tej strateški avtonomiji. In tukaj ne govorimo samo o orožju in tankih, govorimo o tehnološki avtonomnosti, govorimo o energetski avtonomnosti in tako naprej. Kako do tega priti? To so ta vprašanja, ki jih bomo tudi na Blejskem strateškem forumu odpirali. Seveda ne bomo pozabili vseh tistih stvari, o katerih sva že govorila, ki imajo neposreden vpliv na to, kako bo Evropa v prihodnje se razvijala, od boja proti dezinformacijam do kibernetske varnosti, klimatskih sprememb. Letos je tudi 20 let od Pariškega sporazuma, ki je še ena tema, ki bi zahtevala še en podkast, do ene teme, ki je meni posebej zanimiva, in sicer vprašanje evropske identitete. Kaj to je? A to sploh obstaja in kako jo je možno še zgraditi? Ker na koncu koncev smo Slovenci, ampak smo pa tudi Evropejci.

Voditelj: Ja, to zlasti vidimo pri naših otrocih, ko imajo čisto neko novo perspektivo dojemanja države in kontinenta, na katerem živimo.

Gost: Ampak tukaj je spet eno vprašanje, ki je pomembno in ki smo ga tudi obravnavali na strateškem forumu že večkrat. Vprašanje izobraževanja. Ti naši otroci imajo možnost Erasmusa. Vsak študent v Sloveniji, ki ima možnost, je že odšel v drugo državo in to ti da drugo perspektivo in neko drugo znanje.

Voditelj: Super, Peter, hvala za ta uvid ozadja nastajanja Blejskega strateškega foruma. Tvoje besede so najboljša napoved in vabilo ostalim, naj prisluhnejo in spremljajo BSF ne samo v živo, ampak tudi po socialnih omrežjih, kjer bo zagotovljen prenos, če se ne motim?

Gost: Tako je.

Voditelj: Hvala, Peter. Z vami pa sem bil tokrat Zoran Potič.

Gost: Najlepša hvala.

[ENGLISH VERSION]

Government podcast GOVSI

Host Zoran Potič: Dear viewers, listeners. Welcome to the 26th episode of the Gov.si podcast, which is prepared for you as always by the Government Communications Office. This time, for a change, I am Zoran Potič with you. So far, in the podcast, we have somehow dealt with domestic political and social topics that are interesting in one way or another for citizens. This time, however, we would like to focus on a different perspective, another topic, essentially foreign policy, which is essentially not foreign policy in this sense, but a tool of foreign policy. Essentially, in a way, behind the scenes, behind the scenes, where topics are essentially formed and ideas are fertilized and guidelines for the future are set. And in this case, we could say that this case is about the Bled Strategic Forum. And in this case, the best interlocutor on this topic will of course be a diplomat, primarily a diplomat and secretary, if I am not mistaken, of the Bled Strategic Forum, Peter Grk. In this case, I would welcome him.

Guest Peter Grk: Hello.

Host: Greetings. As I said, Peter Grk has been carving, shaping, kneading, and bringing the forum to life in recent years, as I wrote down in my preparations, and now I'm interested in starting with a current topic: can the Bled Strategic Forum predict what is currently happening on a global level? The Bled Strategic Forum will of course be briefly important in this context, which we are currently observing on the world stage.

Guest: Interesting question for the first question. I thought it would be something easier.

Host: We left the easier ones for last.

Guest: Let's move on to the more difficult questions at the beginning. I think that... First of all, foreign policy as such is also important for citizens. It does not directly affect their everyday concerns, but indirectly, what is happening in the external environment has direct consequences for the lives of citizens in Slovenia as well. And in this context, what is happening now in this new geostrategic reality will be something that will probably also determine the next generations or the lives of our citizens. So, yes, foreign policy has come, I think, through a big door into the lives of every individual through all the instability, the conflicts that we are currently seeing in the world, not only the Russian aggression on Ukraine or what is happening in Gaza, but also the conflicts that remain somewhere in the background, but are equally important and tragic for the entire international community, from Sudan to Yemen to what has already happened in the past, for example in Congo, Rwanda and so on. I don't think there is a hero, and neither is the Bled Strategic Forum the hero who would have predicted that in 2025 we would be living in the geostrategic reality we are living in. I don't think that even a day before the Russian aggression on Ukraine, no one predicted that this would actually happen. There were some fears, but it seemed to us that we would never see this again in Europe. Also, what is happening in Gaza at the moment, for example, with this incredible force and disproportion with which Israel responded to the Hamas attack. I think this is something that is impossible for anyone to have predicted. On the other hand, it was predicted that American foreign policy would change with the arrival of...

Leader: New administrations.

Guest: New administrations and that's what actually happened. I think in some cases we're still surprised because we didn't expect it to actually go in that direction. We knew it was going to be different, but I don't think most people expected it to change American foreign policy in this way. Yes, we're living in a new geostrategic reality at the moment. I think it was Gramsci who said that we live in a time when the old world is dying and the new one has not yet been born, and in this in-between period we are witnessing great instability.

Host: We need forums like the Bled Strategic Forum, where we can make sense of all these things, understand them, process them from different angles. Is this ...

Guest: I think now more than ever, but not so much because we talk, although it is right to talk, but above all, to listen. I think that at this moment in foreign policy, as well as in various other contexts of social life, the problem is that people do not listen to each other.

Host: This is the point of diplomacy...

Guest: That's the point of diplomacy, that you can present one thing to your interlocutor and that the interlocutor internalizes or understands it. And in such cases, usually some kind of compromise is reached, which means some way forward. And it seems to me that at the moment, at least in foreign policy, we are faced with the fact that people are talking past each other and that countries, regional players, actually don't hear each other. And that's why we are witnessing all these conflicts that are happening.

Host: If we started at the end, I suggest we go to the beginning. Namely, how has the Bled Strategic Forum developed over all these years. How did the initiative come about, how was it organized, how was it established. And how did it then proceed over the years? How has this thing grown?

Guest: I think... I wasn't there at the time, I was still a young and aspiring diplomat at the time. I think I was on a mission in Brussels before the presidency began.

Host: This happened in 2006.

Guest: This happened in 2006. But after discussions with my predecessors: the idea was, and I think it is actually a great idea, to build on certain knowledge that Slovenia or the Slovenian diplomatic service gained after chairing the OSCE, that is, the Organization for Security and Peace in Europe, which we, as Slovenia, chaired in 2004, 2005. And then the minister, at that time Professor Dimitrij Rupel was the minister, with his colleagues came up with the idea to transform this knowledge that we gained through chairing this organization into something more strategic or into something that would increase the so-called soft power of Slovenian foreign policy. We must be aware that Slovenia is as big as Munich and our real power to change things in the international community lies only in the fact that we have certain ideas, certain considerations, certain positions, which we then place and based on these positions and these considerations, if they are good, a broader compromise may be formed, and here Slovenia wanted to play a role. Therefore, the Bled Strategic Forum, on the one hand, represents a window into the world of Slovenia and the promotion of Slovenia as a country that wants to play an active role in the international community, and on the other hand, it is also a space where various players come to the constructive, extremely beautiful atmosphere of Bled - Bled is essentially one of the most beautiful cities in the world - and can informally discuss extremely difficult issues. This was the premise at the beginning. I think that the first forum was dedicated precisely because of the chairmanship of the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe to the South Caucasus. History repeats itself. At that time, there was a major crisis between Armenia and Azerbaijan and so on. Tendencies towards various energy corridors also began to emerge, and this path represented one of the more important visions for Europe in terms of energy independence. This was the first forum, small, relatively small, around 200, 300 people. And yes, in these years we have grown to one number, but I don't want to talk about numbers. Numbers don't tell the whole story. I think the key thing about the Bled Strategic Forum is, above all, the power to talk about certain problems. Later, we were ready to bring people who think differently, to sit them at the same table, to listen to each other. And then there were also certain concrete things, concrete questions, which we then sent to the international community.

Host: Give me an example.

Guest: Yes, let's say. I find one topic most interesting, as we say in diplomacy, a fringe topic , that is, on the periphery - Water Security. Slovenia is one of the key initiators of discussing water security from various perspectives, because we believe that the issue of water, especially with climate change, will play a fairly important role in the international community in the future. We had a panel, I think it was two or three years ago, on water security. It was a small panel. I must admit, it was very poorly attended, but the panelists who were on the panel were exceptional. And after the end of the panel, after the end of the discussion, which was really good and you can still watch it on YouTube, the panelists came up with the idea of making a declaration or a paper on water security, which would be a BSF contribution to the entire debate that was taking place. And they actually made it. We distributed this paper through the BSF's social networks and also through our diplomatic network. After 14 days, the ambassador in Geneva was called by Tajikistan and the Netherlands, who were co-chairs of the United Nations Water Summit, and they said that because there was a new aspect written in there that had not been discussed at the moment, they would like it to actually be taken up as one topic at the United Nations Water Summit. And that actually happened. That is, from Bled, from one small event, one small panel, to the fact that this water summit then discussed this aspect of water security . And the conclusions that were adopted represent a way forward, which may or I think will almost certainly play an important role in ensuring that certain conflicts do not occur in the future, mainly due to water resources and water shortages.

Host: The so-called water diplomacy.

Guest: Water diplomacy.

Host: But this is extremely interesting. Namely, I'm interested in this case, in this context, how do you choose topics at the ministry, at your place, at the BSF? What is this process, the thought process? Is it left to chance? Do you write on slips of paper and then mix them up a bit and draw lots, or is it some kind of thought process, some kind of selection, an attempt to see into the future, what would have been, what wouldn't have been? How does that work?

Guest: I think we try to be more coherent every year. I don't know if we succeed. I think that perhaps the best ideas are born from a kind of brainstorm, from a kind of chaos, where we like to ask a larger number of people, not only diplomats, but actually also people who are part of civil society, from professors to businessmen and so on. This year, for example, we organized two round tables, not public, closed type, where we invited some BSF participants from different professions or from different perspectives, from civil society to professors to businessmen to diplomats to retired ambassadors to generals and so on, and there we discussed where the international community is and what would be the topic, that is, the main one, that would describe this new reality as much as possible. And the result was interesting, because in the end you basically see in reality why it is important to have all aspects of society at one table. I often say that the moment we live in is too important to be left to politicians alone, and it seems to me that if we do not achieve, and here the Bled Strategic Forum is important, some broader social consensus on where we are going and what the things that are important are, then things can go very wrong, as they are already going at the moment. And that is why this year we have made a special effort in choosing the topic, in talking to a really large number of stakeholders, in order to come up with a concept that holds water. But if we talk about how it all went in the past. Yes, there is a consideration within the Foreign Ministry. Here we use all the diplomatic knowledge that we have. That is, the Bled Strategic Forum talks to different directorates that cover different topics, and then we go out with it into civil society and check whether these ideas are actually the ones that are important. So far it has worked, I think we have been quite relevant over the years. I won't talk about numbers, but yes, we have reached a certain upper limit that the infrastructure in Bled still allows. So now, if we talk a little about the future of the Bled Strategic Forum. It will definitely not grow. But we want it to be even more substantive, so that we can contribute even more ideas to the debate that we are now having in the international community.

Host: Yes, you mentioned that at the beginning, the beginnings were modest in numbers, but always strong in topics. Of course, this has grown. Which BSFs were historically groundbreaking in your opinion, or which one left the biggest mark on water diplomacy? Is this also a measure of importance, the participation of politicians, representatives of the international community who attended, from the President of the European Commission, the President of the EU Council and so on?

Guest: Yeah, that's a little... I mean, it's a similar question to me when your own children ask you which one you prefer. You love them all equally, knowing how much effort, patience, and work went into each one of them, but of course the public perceives each one differently. Some people like the public more, some people like it less. Some people would like such people, some people would like different people. It is probably too early to talk about the history of different BSFs, but let's say one that comes to mind. It happened two years ago, when the then President of the European Council Charles Michel was visiting. That is why this year we invited, for example, the new President of the European Council Costa, who will also attend the BSF. Charles Michel announced at the BSF that in his opinion the European Union should be ready to accept new member states by 2030. I think it was the Albanian Foreign Minister who then described Michel's speech as the Bled Pledge, that is, a Bled pledge that this process, which has been going on for too long, or I think that too long is a bad word, but it has been going on for a long time, since 2003, I think and the Thessaloniki summit, should be completed by 2030 and this year we will actually check whether this is feasible. But is this pledge something that will actually happen or not? We have certain indications, we also received the Slovenian Commissioner for Enlargement, Marta Kos, that we are going in this direction. And I am extremely happy about that, so if, for example, we remember the Bled Strategic Forum by 2030, then I hope that this Bled pledge will actually come to life and that we will arrive at, as they are now saying in the European Commission, no longer at enlargement, but at the unification of the European continent. BSF, if we look at history and all these years of what has been happening, in my opinion, has also played this role of a podium for the Southeast European region.

Host: The presidents of these countries and governments regularly attended the Bled Strategic Forum, and in a way it is also a tool of Slovenian foreign policy towards this region. Like an extended hand, I would say. Do you agree with this assessment?

Guest: Yes and no. I mean yes in the sense that this region is definitely in our vital interest for Slovenia, purely geostrategically speaking. If we expand the area of peace, security and stability towards the Western Balkans, this is extremely important for Slovenia. So this topic is traditional. This is something that is important for our foreign policy, as well as for Slovenia in general and our business people. But it is true that through years of discussion and reflection, we have come to understand that this forum is probably something more than the Western Balkans itself. It seemed to us that Slovenian foreign policy is something more than just the Western Balkans region. If we look at, for example, at this very moment, what Slovenian foreign policy is dealing with, from non-permanent membership in the Security Council to the traditionally strong role that we have, regarding Gaza, regarding Russian aggression on Ukraine, regarding the future of Europe, we have found that okay, we have a region, we have enlargement, which is our extremely important topic and we will maintain it. On the other hand, we also wanted to open the forum to those topics that are a little more global and are also important for the development of regional events. For example, if we talk about cybersecurity, if we talk about climate change, if we talk about migration, if we talk about transatlantic relations. In other words, all of these topics are important because they also play a role in this narrow regional context, so I think that this development of the Bled Strategic Forum from a platform for mainly some regional things has now led us to a slightly broader reflection on the global community as such.

Host: What if we look from the perspective of Slovenia and the BSF? How do they see the Bled Strategic Forum from the outside? What are your reactions from Europe, from overseas countries, the Middle East? How do these communities view the BSF? Do you have any insight into that?

Guest: Yes, I think the hardest thing is to be a prophet in your own village. Because if we look at the responses from outside, they are really good. This is also reflected in the growth, in the fact that certain guests always come back and so on. But one thing that is important to them and that the forum offers, unlike all the other strategic events, of which there are quite a few, we have Davos, the Munich Security Conference, GLOBSEC and so on. And I think that at this moment we can already put the Bled Strategic Forum in this category, because it is something that is good, which is important, especially in the context of a small country like Slovenia. But one thing that they always tell us is that in Bled they feel like part of a wider society. They say that basically Bled, the Bled Strategic Forum is important because it is so inclusive in the sense that we really try to bring from young people to politicians to businessmen to professors to academics and so on and put them all on an equal footing. Last time, a moderator wrote to me that it was brilliant for him to come to a reception and be able to talk to, say, the Qatari foreign minister over food and so on. This inclusiveness is something we will try to maintain in the future, because if we don't talk to each other, then things will go in a very wrong direction.

Host: Because this is an interesting moment, that there is, you will know the name better, a strategic forum for young people. Here I came across an interesting story, that when students came to the strategic forum from abroad, then the same people returned in some other functions. This has already happened in the almost 20 years of this forum.

Guest: I think that when we started this idea of the Bled Strategic Youth Forum, we wanted to give a voice to young people, because we felt that their voice was missing in foreign policy, even though we are talking about the future that they will live in, we are talking about climate change and so on. On the other hand, we wanted to create a process where we would bring in very different profiles of young people, those who have shown a certain ambition, as well as a certain knowledge, that they would like to achieve something, whether it is in politics or the economy or at the local level. And yes, throughout history, I think we have had a couple of ministers, a couple of young people who became ministers. I think even a prime minister. This is the former Montenegrin prime minister Abazović. I remember that he came to the BSF in jeans. Now, in fact, we are including young people more and more. That is, we are trying to have at least one young voice in every discussion at the main Bled Strategic Forum, which we select through certain processes, one-on-one discussions of young people with different people. For example, last year I particularly remembered Albie Sachs, a former South African constitutional judge, the man who signed the end of apartheid, and I think this exchange of views between young and experienced representatives of society is extremely important for both the experienced and the young.

Host: Yes, before we get to this year's BSF, I'm curious about one thing. Considering that the Bled Strategic Forum has been running for so many years, a significant number of Slovenian diplomats are involved in the organization and implementation... How do you think such a forum has influenced the development of Slovenian diplomacy, diplomats? Has it influenced at all?

Guest: Yes, in fact, over the past 20 years, a huge number of people have come from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, as well as from the Centre for European Perspective, which is a partner of the Bled Strategic Forum. A huge number of people who, through the forum, have gained one thing, at least I hope, that we sometimes lack in Slovenia, which is self-confidence. The self-confidence that they are not better elsewhere, that they do not have more knowledge elsewhere than we do, but that sometimes they speak a little louder, and it seems to me that through the Bled Strategic Forum, at least in the last 10 years that I have been working on it, a galaxy of young diplomats has come to the BSF, who I hope have become more self-confident through this forum and that Slovenia as such has also become more self-confident in foreign policy. I will not say that this is only because of the Bled Strategic Forum, but I hope that we are at least one small stone in this mosaic, that we, as Slovenia, play a more important role in the international community than we have in the past.

Host: In short, if I give an analogy with sports, we can play in the first league.

Guest: Yes.

Host: Basketball or football.

Guest: I agree, that's a good analogy. Maybe in hockey, for example. Here we are in Group A and I think it's right that we don't fear anyone because we have proven that we have the knowledge.

Host: Now that we're nearing the end, let's move on to this year. Peter, you mentioned that important high-ranking guests are coming again. What will be happening this year on our postcard, in Bled, what can be heard and who will end up coming? Who announced their arrival?

Guest: Yes, we discussed a little bit about how we would actually commemorate this 20th anniversary, because it's still a milestone that's important.

Host: Which is a turning point.

Guest: Which is also a turning point. But it seemed to us that the time we live in is perhaps not the most suitable for celebrations, but it is quite suitable for good, strong substantive discussions about where we are going next. We decided that on this 20th anniversary we would especially like to bring even better discussions, even more substantive in depth, so that we as a society can move forward, because it seems to me that if we stay in this moment that we are in, then there is probably only one possible direction and it will not be a pretty one. So this year we called the Bled Strategic Forum or the common thread and the title is The Runaway World.

Host: Escaped world.

Guest: The world has fled. The first question that arises with this title is: the world has fled from whom or what and where?

Host: It sounds so mysterious.

Guest: But it is not. I think that if we look at the current situation, then we can speak with a fairly high probability that the world is running away from us, from the Western world, and is moving somewhere else. If we were to ask the Chinese or Indians, for example, it would be difficult to say that the world has run away from them. But it has run away from us a little because there are simply such tectonic shifts happening, for which - not that we were not prepared, but we do not yet have the answers. I think that it depends primarily on us, that is, on Europe, and to a certain extent also on the United States of America, although there are some frictions and tensions here that will need to be resolved in the future. But it depends on the Western world whether we will be able to recognize this moment and make the right diagnosis and the right answers. That is why we are running away from the world. That is, this year we would like to start discussions from us, from Europe. What does Europe expect from this world, what can this world give to Europe, and whether Europe will be able to change so that it can cope with this new reality that is emerging. Europe as such - I think this is something that is within us - both Slovenians and Europeans are very negative. We have already buried Europe...

Host: We are pessimists, pessimists.

Guest: In the last ten, 15 years, we have buried Europe at least ten times. From the energy crisis, from the Russian attack on Ukraine, from migration, from the financial crisis. But Europe is still here. Maybe wounded, but it is still here and I think that this resilience of Europe that it is showing is an extremely interesting phenomenon, because I think that this experiment that we call the European Union is something that is unique in the international community, something that must be fought for and something that must be endured. Will we be able to? This depends primarily on us and on how much we can adapt to these new conditions in the international community. So this year's Bled Strategic Forum will primarily be a promotion of Europe.

Host: To touch on the question from the beginning, when you mentioned soft power. Basically, it seems like Europe is the only one left with this soft power, because everyone else uses power in international relations. It seems obvious that this dilemma now is, how will this world function going forward?

Guest: In any case, I think that given our structure and everything, this soft power of Europe will remain. But we will definitely have to adapt to new things that are happening in the international space. I think it would be illusory or even stupid and unreasonable not to talk about European defense. I think we need to talk about European defense. We need to look at where the shortcomings we have are, so that we as a society become even more resilient. I know that this discussion is also taking place in Slovenia. It is also taking place elsewhere in Europe. There are different opinions. I think that there needs to be some healthy, rational consideration about this, so that as Europe we become increasingly resilient, not only militarily, but as a society as a whole. Here we are talking about this strategic autonomy. And here we are not just talking about weapons and tanks, we are talking about technological autonomy, we are talking about energy autonomy and so on. How to achieve this? These are the questions that we will also be raising at the Bled Strategic Forum. Of course, we will not forget all those things that we have already talked about that have a direct impact on how Europe will develop in the future, from the fight against disinformation to cybersecurity, climate change. This year is also the 20th anniversary of the Paris Agreement, which is another topic that would require another podcast, to one topic that is particularly interesting to me, namely the question of European identity. What is it? Does it even exist and how can it still be built? Because at the end of the day, we are Slovenians, but we are also Europeans.

Host: Yes, we especially see this in our children, when they have a completely new perspective on the country and continent we live on.

Guest: But here is another issue that is important and that we have discussed at the strategic forum several times. The issue of education. Our children have the opportunity for Erasmus. Every student in Slovenia who has the opportunity has already gone to another country and that gives you a different perspective and some other knowledge.

Host: Great, Peter, thank you for this insight into the background of the creation of the Bled Strategic Forum. Your words are the best prediction and an invitation to others to listen and follow the BSF not only live, but also on social networks, where it will be broadcast, if I'm not mistaken?

Guest: That's right.

Host: Thank you, Peter. And with you this time was Zoran Potič.

Guest: Thank you very much.